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Thread: Carbine vs Pistol training
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December 15th, 2009, 10:01 PM #1
Carbine vs Pistol training
I am sure by now everyone knows that I am a training over tools guy. Many are probably tired of hearing about it. I have a very serious question though and I would like people to weigh in for a good discussion.
Here is my question- Why do so many people who carry a pistol everyday attend carbine courses instead of pistol courses? Every time I am at Wally World I look at the gun rags and see review after review of carbine courses.
I have an M4 custom built by Steve Troy, custom SN and all. I carried it on the job, I taught carbine, I deployed it on patrol and on SWAT jobs. But to tell you the truth not that much compared to my pistol that was always on me. Several times I was involved in stuff off duty and it was always my pistol in my hands.
Now that I am not on the job anymore I see little chance of me ever being in a position to use my rifle outside my home or the range. I would imagine that is the same for most people so why the need for so many carbine courses? The farther a threat is from you the easier it is to deal with. What is the chance of anyone not in the military being spontaneously attacked while having a rifle slung? Don't misunderstand me, everyone should have training on all weapon systems but I think it should follow a logical order of what you are most likely to be able to use. For me that would be first fundamentals on pistol, shotgun, and rifle in that order. Then a combative course in each and then lots and lots of force on force in realistic environments. For most of us that would be in our "street" clothes inside of a house, not running around a field even with long guns.
Again, I am interested in everyone thoughts.- George
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December 15th, 2009, 11:39 PM #2
Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
everyone should have training on all weapon systems but I think it should follow a logical order of what you are most likely to be able to use
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December 16th, 2009, 12:28 AM #3
Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
George,
I tend to agree.
It would be more likely for me to have any encounter finding me with 2 pistols (or even just one) as opposed to a carbine, rifle or SG.
If it was an incident during hunting season, I would have a rifle and 2 pistols.
I cannot think of an instance where I would have ready access to a loaded long gun unless it was at home or range associated or even some type of bizarre domestic terror incident and I was lucky enough to acquire some long arm as a battlefield pickup IF I couldn't just run away. % of possibility?
I have taken a carbine class, feel I should have more training with long guns but doubt I would ever be in a situation to warrant this. The same thing goes with team clearing of structures, dynamic entry and precision longrange shooting. Although this is all good training, I don't train enough with my sidearms let alone train with my AR's, AK, SKS's and deer rifles. I would be in situations where me, myself and I would have to do whatever we could do to survive with only handguns ( if even those). I also do not have a car long gun as emphasized by some trainers.
At my age, with more and more physically limiting problems ( bad knees, shoulders, eyes), I doubt I could do 2 or 3 day classes anymore and am at a point where I cannot afford a $700 to $1K training class ( this includes the $400 class, an unpaid day off work, 700 rounds of ammo and misc other costs).
It is a good idea to have a well rounded training background and most people train for the possibility of having to use various forms of self defense from close quarters hand to hand out to long range rifle but i often wonder if the costs of time, tools and ammo is worth the percentage of possibility of having to use that specific training.
I would probably always default to my level of handgun training.
Just a few 27 thoughtsOpinions are like anal apertures. They all stink but mine.
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December 16th, 2009, 12:50 AM #4Grand Member
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Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
i have been meaning to take a carbine class for a couple years now. but i keep not taking it because i end up spending the money and time on pistol/tactics classes.
in addition, it is all i can do to find the time and money to shoot my pistol enough to maintain adequate proficiency, so at this point a carbine class would really be of limited value to me as i would not likely practice enough to maintain the skills.F*S=k
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December 16th, 2009, 02:44 AM #5Member
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Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
I take your point, but...
While I have less field experience than you... I probably take a different approach to home security and probably corporate security for critical infrastructures. I don't know of many corporates that have precision rifle teams, but I collected stories about exchanges of rifle fire in remote rural areas. It has been a while but friends at the Texas - Mexico border did so when they surprised some "coyotes and mules". These poor people had to clear their home and garage daily after returning home following work to make sure no one else was there hiding people or drugs in their home or on their land. Eventually they moved much further north to the suburbs because the rural, no neighbors or LE for miles thing scared them too much.
Yes, a pistol will be readily available in far far more cases than a long arm.
The pistol also gives you time to get to a home defense shotgun or home defense carbine with prefragmented rounds and a separate magazine with standard defense ammunition. This would be used from fixed positions in the home (meaning safe room not panic rooms) or when retreating out of the home to safety if required. I prefer an m1 carbine to an m4 and so do the women of the household. A flashlight and a red dot will do wonders here.
One or two trained people with pistols and another with a shotgun or carbine should fear the risk of accidental discharges/or misidentification of people in the home, or arson more than dying at the hand of an intruder with a pistol
I have lived in vastly different communities and the first time I saw a rifle in a gun rack in a rear pickup window I almost crashed pulling over. Now I don't think anything of a farmer getting out of a truck, pulling out a rifle, and shooting a woodchuck in his fields. Except in PA most of the farm rifles changed from bolts or levers to things like mini14s first and now ARs.
I would say you have the training schedule right except I would swap out
a few things. I would do advanced training in carbine before advanced shotgun. I think once you need more than basic skills in shotgun, you will
be in situations where the range of a carbine will be important.
just my opinions... PS I don't train anyone but family and friends
in precision rifle or tactical shotgun applications. I do safety stuff for professionals including policies, and range officer stuff, and non-lethal force on force training with all three, but most people should start with pistols as you say.
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December 16th, 2009, 03:15 AM #6
Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
Good questions Mercop.
What is the percentage of people "who just use a pistol to fight their way to a long arm"?
I think in 95%+ of civilian lethal force encounters, nobody is going to have time to "fight their way to a long arm". Scratch that, nobody is going to have the opportunity to do so. If you're caught out at work, or grocery shopping, or at church, or at the playground, how many people are within "fighting distance of a long arm"? Probably next to none. Your long arm is 20 miles away at home.
My guesstimate is that the only people who could possibly fight to a long arm are those who have been followed/assulted on the way into their home, and then persued, which I'm sure is quite rare. (I'm not saying people being attacked outside and into their home is rare, but the amount of people who would purposely use tactics designed to get them to their long arms)In the even more rare instance, one might have a "truck long arm", where they could fight their way to the vehicle and switch up to a better weapon.
Now assuming my assessment of civilian lethal force encounters is reasonable, (we'll leave that to the professionals to decide) then pistol training is paramount.
Do I think rifle and shotgun training is important, hell yeah I do.
Can I think of a situation where I would need to utilize tactical shotgun or carbine training? If I could foresee such an event I would probably do my best to avoid it.
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December 16th, 2009, 09:08 AM #7
Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
Good thoughts guys. IMHO you will need your hands to fight to your pistol long before you use your pistol to fight to your rifle.
I think that the use your pistol to fight to your rifle is part of the romantic fantasy about an individuals last stand or something. I was never in a situation to get back to my trunk for my shotty or AR, most of the time I had been smart enough or knew enough about the situation to take a long gun with me as I got out of the car.
Kinda reminds me at the gun shows when I am talking to someone about edged weapons and another guy smirks and says "that is why I carry a gun" as he points down to his pistol with a zip tie around it. While I stand there with a live blade.
What kills me about the carbine articles is the guys running around in mulitcam with chest rigs. The vast majority of the time I deployed an M4 it had a 20 rnd mag in it for going prone on the hood of my car, and on the way out of the car I put took a 30 rnd mag out of my drivers side map compartment and put in in my reaction side rear pocket. And guess what, that is how I trained. - George
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December 16th, 2009, 09:12 AM #8Grand Member
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Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
Yeah, "more's the pity".
The vast majority of the time I deployed an M4 it had a 20 rnd mag in it for going prone on the hood of my car, and on the way out of the car I put took a 30 rnd mag out of my drivers side map compartment and put in in my reaction side rear pocket. And guess what, that is how I trained. - George
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December 16th, 2009, 09:52 AM #9
Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
I've taken several pistol courses but never a carbine course.
I'm due for a carbine course soon."Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician" Col. Jeff Cooper (U.S.M.C. Ret.)
Speed is fine, Accuracy is final
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December 16th, 2009, 10:33 PM #10Member
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Re: Carbine vs Pistol training
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yeah I know people with truck guns, but not that many anymore.
I do carry my pistol/s and cell phones. If something happens in my home or office, we plan/train to gather up each other and retreat to the most defensible room/s and that is where the long guns are. The first step, ie gathering up the family/staff is when the cell phones and pistols are the only option. .
I don't see the need for "going all tactical" ever. But everyone here can put two magazines from the carbine into a paper plate and would, despite the castle doctrine, retreat while armed to safety outside of the home/office if it was safer than holding out in place. The protocol here is guns and phones and lots of warnings to attackers that the 911 operators will be recording.
Next, calls to lawyers and clergy while going to the hospital for checkups.
After that I am sure come the numerous interviews
I think most people would be better off skipping a pistol, shotgun, carbine course and taking a course with legal and personal implications from self defense and having an introductory meeting with a firearms attorney, then putting their numbers in cell phones.
When I can I will be taking a couple of people up to New Hampshire for at least one course.
I also want to talk to and hire a new firearms attorney, mine is too far away to do much good.
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