FTF Transfer in PA Question

[ungawa]

Do I need a PICS/NICS check to do a face to face transfer of a MAC 10 in PA between non-dealers? I thought I heard I would because of the short barrel. But my dealer told me no check is required. Thanks!

[Pa. Patriot]

Do I need a PICS/NICS check to do a face to face transfer of a MAC 10 in PA between non-dealers? I thought I heard I would because of the short barrel. But my dealer told me no check is required. Thanks!

Since you asked this in the NFA section, I have to ask: Is the MAC10 an NFA registered weapon? (IE: machinegun?).

If yes, the transfer obviously has to be done on an approved ATF form-4. However, no CIII dealer needed.
If the item has a barrel length less than 16"or overall length less than 26" is needs to be done trough an FFL so that an Application/Record of sale can be submitted per 18PACS6111

If the MAC is a title-1 firearm (IE: Semi-auto PISTOL), then it is the same as any other pistol in PA. It MUST go through an FFL/sheriff for transfer to anyone who is not your parent/grandparent/child/grandchild/spouse or an FFL.

[bug]

Do I need a PICS/NICS check to do a face to face transfer of a MAC 10 in PA between non-dealers? I thought I heard I would because of the short barrel. But my dealer told me no check is required. Thanks!

It is my understanding that it is considered a "pistol" by PA law and must transfer through a PA FFL or CO Sheriff with PICS.

[ungawa]

If yes, the transfer obviously has to be done through a C-3 dealer to a buyer on an approved ATF form-4

It's a machinegun, but now I am really confused. Form 4 I agree with, but my understanding is a face-to-face NFA transfer requires no dealer. I just thought that since it has a short barrel it might require something under PA law specifically.

[Pa. Patriot]

Sorry, I spoke too quick. That didn't come out the way I intended.

Now we know it's a MG.

No C-3 dealer needed for transfer, intrastate, on an approved F4 if it is a 16+ bbl (rifle) or 18+ (shotgun) and over 26" OAL.

Since the MAC is a less than 16" rifled barrel and less than 26" OAL, §6111 specifies it needs transferred through an FFL (Application/Record of Sale)

(f) Application of section.--
(1) For the purposes of this section only, except as
provided by paragraph (2), "firearm" shall mean any weapon
which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any
projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or
receiver of any such weapon.
(2) The provisions contained in subsections (a) and (c)
shall only apply to pistols or revolvers with a barrel length
of less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length of
less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel length of less
than 16 inches or any firearm with an overall length of less
than 26 inches.

Subsection (c) is the "Duty of other persons" subsection, IE: private sale.

Again, sorry for the confusing reply. I was glossing over the MG part because I thought you had a Title-1 firearm.

[Guns4Fun]

I would keep digging and ask a c3 dealer. I am / was under the impresssion that once you had an approved form 4 from the batfe you could do a ftf exchange without any other checks. Now, shipping it in state non ffl through the post office is a big no no because of post office regs.

[JayBell]

no need to ask a C3 dealer, Rich posted the state law.

When going FTF on an item with underlength barrels, even with NFA, you have to hit a FFL to do the record of sale, regardless of passing the ATF check, PSP wants to know if you have something thats a concealable weapon.

[Gun Bowanna]

But, Then dosen't the transfering dealer require it (the machinegun) be entered into their A&D book in order to complete a PICS check?
Then, How's this done without another form 4 (to the dealer to log in) and another to the transferee?
And who would pay that transfer tax?

I thought, dealers conducting FTF transfers are required to enter (the transfering) fireams into thier A&D books in order to be legally able to access PICS. If it's a machinegun, how is that handled without federal transfer forms showing the transfer to/possesion by the dealer to the feds?

inquiring minds want to know.

[JayBell]

i've never managed to get this question adequately answered by teh ATF.


However, the answer i received is similar to if i was dropping my MG off at a gunsmith for repair, in that the gunsmith logs the NFA firearm into the books, but on returning said firearm, no NICS/PICS is required, as an actual transfer of ownership has not been done.

ATFs opinion was that the item is not actually being transferred for NFA tax purposes to the dealer, as the transfer has already been done thru the ATF to the new owner, you are just complying with state law on having a background check run for PICS purposes.

the ATF put out a FFL notice about this in 2006, FFLs were just doing the PICs paperwork, but not logging guns in, ATF said this is a no-no.

so technically, the FFL is getting the NFA item into his AD book, but he does not OWN it for transfer purposes under the licensee name.

if the buyer fails the PICs, the transferor has a PICS done on him, receives the NFA item back, and then must call the ATF and void the transfer to the prohibited buyer.

another option is to install a title 1 length barrel on the NFA item, this is what i did on a Uzi SMG on a private transfer, the transferor just put a 16" semi barel on the thing, and skipped the FFL entirely, form 4 approved and he handed me the gun.

this would not be a possible solution on all cases however

[Pa. Patriot]

Jaybell is correct.

It is very similar to when an NFA item is not "transferred" when sent to an FFL for repair. The log-in in the book, for purpose of private transfer/sale between two private parties does not constitute a "transfer" to/from the FFL in the eyes of the ATF.
The "Transfer" of ownership is between the two parties. The FFL is only conducting the Application/Record of Sale to satisfy PA law.