Is FTF required for intrastate PA-based FFL to PA resident transfers?

[pex]

I am a resident of Pennsylvania.

A Pennsylvania registered 01 licensee has a handgun I want to purchase.

I have no licenscing (ex 03 FFL).

ATF seems to ignore intrastate (except that handguns must use a common carrier.)

PA Uniform Firearms Act (specifically section of statute) 6111 (regarding duty of seller) seems to be silent on an actual requirement that a buyer present themselves in person, only that they present identifying information that is nowhere required to be confirmed.

Is FTF required for intrastate FFL-to-PA-resident transfers? Is it legal for the Pennsylvanian FFL to send me a handgun through common carrier to a residential location?

Please quote statute, case law, or executive mandate which would prevent such action!

[The Drew]

I don't have any statutes, but you can't very well sign paperwork unless you're there in person...

I suggest one of two options. 1. You drive to the dealer and pick it up. or 2. you have the dealer ship the gun to a local to you dealer and pick it up there.

Either that or forget about the original dealer and find it somewhere else.

[pex]

I don't have any statutes, but you can't very well sign paperwork unless you're there in person...

Are you from the 1800s? This is 1980. We have facsimile machines now. Some of the hipsters are calling them 'fax' machines...it's confusing our staff here.


I realize I'm going to run into all this 'counter-intuitive' thinking...OF COURSE it's illegal not to FTF! How would the government LET IT HAPPEN ANY OTHER WAY!

And for that reason, I ask for statute, case law, or executive mandate which would prevent such action!

[Pa. Patriot]

Please quote statute, case law, or executive mandate which would prevent such action!

I am working on it. (cites) Bear with me. But yes, you have to be there in person.

Drew, the sig is not the problem, all that can be done through the mail.
The problem is with inspection of ID, etc...

[Pa. Patriot]

Here's one problem.

SS6111 (b)(2)

(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential
purchaser or transferee, including, but not limited to, a
driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification
card or official government photoidentification card. In the
case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a
recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or
discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect
or community, a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo
driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed
by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's
name, address, date of birth and the signature of the
applicant.

There is no facility provided to allow reproductions of ID.
You can't inspect an ID without having it in your hand...


Fed law issues too... looking up cites...

[pex]

I am working on it. (cites) Bear with me. But yes, you have to be there in person.

Drew, the sig is not the problem, all that can be done through the mail.
The problem is with inspection of ID, etc...

What requires the level of ID inspection that you're insinuating? All information required by 6111 will be available and clear on a fax or by mail.

Further, why can I not mail the FFL my ID card to meet ID inspection legal limits, if they exist? Further, pending it is true there is no requirement that the ID be compared to ME (since I am already affirming upon penalty that I am the buyer, on 4473), why would this not be a possibility?

[pex]

Here's one problem.

SS6111 (b)(2)


There is no facility provided to allow reproductions of ID.
You can't inspect an ID without having it in your hand...


Fed law issues too... looking up cites...

PA UFA neither defines "inspection" or "photo identification". Ex: If I set my ID in Pittsburgh, and the FFL is in Lancaster, and he uses a telescope, has he inspected my ID? Is a person required to 'touch' to 'inspect'? Why would a pictoral or multi-pictoral representation, sent digitally (without loss), be significantly different to a telescope? What if I mail a manual picture instead of a reproduction through electronics?

There are no standards provided for us here.

[Pa. Patriot]

Forget everything else.

Here is the kicker:

ss6113 (a)(5)

(5) A true record in triplicate shall be made of every
firearm sold, in a book kept for the purpose, the form of
which may be prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, and
shall be personally signed by the purchaser and by the person
effecting the sale, each in the presence of the other, and
shall contain the information required by section 6111. The
record shall be maintained by the licensee for a period of 20
years.

"each in the presence of one another" means FTF.

And per Fed law FFL's can not conduct this business off their licensed premises (exception is gun show w/notification to ATF)

So the form must be signed in the presence of one another and FFL can not do transfers except at lic. place of biz or gun show.

[Pa. Patriot]

PA UFA neither defines "inspection" or "photo identification". .

and it further goes on to say about other than photo ID: ...as prescribed
by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's
name, address, date of birth and the signature of the
applicant."

The PSP has prescribed that alternate ID be originals, not copies. And the law (above) allows them that discretion.

[pex]

and it further goes on to say about other than photo ID: ...as prescribed
by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's
name, address, date of birth and the signature of the
applicant."

The PSP has prescribed that alternate ID be originals, not copies. And the law (above) allows them that discretion.

That is not what that section states.

a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo
driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed
by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's
name, address, date of birth and the signature of the
applicant.

This does not allow the PSP to prescribe specifications for "inspection" or "photo identification" in general, only for a seller when provided what I bet is "a combination of documents" but could be construed to mean either a valid-without-photo DL or a combination of documents, and only "potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a
recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or
discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect
or community" (...however violative that may be of church/state separation, if it is.)