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Critically important note about PICS and NICS
We're seeing an increasing number of criminal prosecutions for PICS denials in Pennsylvania, where the State Police are referring close to 100% of all denials for follow-up prosecution.
What's happened is that the NRA and others pointed out, quite correctly, that we hardly need more gun laws when the govt isn't using the current gun laws to their full scope. Going back to Bill Clinton, the mismatch between "millions of felons blocked from getting guns" and the handful of prosecutions of those felons, has drawn comments from those who paid attention. If all of these terrible people are trying to illegally buy guns, why aren't we prosecuting them?
Rather than admit that state and Federal gun laws are too broad, and are preventing too many harmless people from buying guns, the response has been to prosecute more prohibited persons, regardless of their level of culpability.
We're seeing a disproportionate number of prosecutions of people who had 302 commitments, often as teenagers, and the same for DUI's. In both cases, the legal conclusion at the base of the prohibition is not easy for the layman to know. People held for a few days in hospitals often are blissfully unaware of the paperwork being filed by a nurse or doctor somewhere. People convicted of a DUI have to work very hard to get through the multiple applicable statutes that describe the offense, set forth the minimum penalty, describe the penalty level, and mention the maximum penalty allowed for that level. For a DUI, you literally need to locate and read and comprehend at least 4 separate statutes in the Vehicle Code and in the Crimes Code to answer the question:
Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
. . . which does not really mean that at all; if you can get through the multi-page instructions on the 4473, and read Paragraph 6, you'll find that it REALLY means
(this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less).
Since 2006, when PAFOA began, I've posted dozens of times that you do NOT want to use PICS to "see if you're prohibited". Even back in 2006, when 98% of PICS or NICS denials didn't result in criminal prosecution, IT WAS ALWAYS POSSIBLE. There was always that risk.
Now the risk is much, much higher, and my advice is critically important. DO NOT use PICS just to resolve the issue of whether you're prohibited.
The State Police WILL refer your denial to the local cops for criminal prosecution, if the PSP doesn't prosecute it themselves.
DO NOT wing it on the 4473. This isn't like the check-off box where you claim to have read and understood the Terms of Use for that new software. This is serious. There's jail time and permanent loss of gun rights involved, because your chances of getting your rights restored after that old conviction from 20 years ago, just went up in smoke with your new "crime".
If you ever were arrested, or you have a questionable military discharge, or you had a warrant issued in another state, or there's ANYTHING that you're not sure about on the 4473, then STOP, DON'T TOUCH, and FIND AN ADULT to explain it to you (with apologies to the Eddie the Eagle program.)
Ask the lawyer who handled your old case, get the records from the hospital. Hire a new lawyer to do the research and explain things to you. Look up your own records here:
https://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets.aspx
Because if you just answer the questions "to the best of your current knowledge", and hope for the best, you may be spending a lot of money and time later, trying to avoid conviction and jail.
I get paid when things go wrong, so this goes against my financial interests. I get a lot more money handling criminal defense than I do doing a quick records review. But we're a community, and I actually care about what happens to at least some of you. STOP suggesting that people use PICS as a quick and dirty background check. Know your own records.
The 4473 requires you to know and understand the legal implications of certain incidents. It requires you to have the proper legal conclusion regarding a set of facts. Yes, you remember going to court back in college after "that thing with the drunk girl" or whatever; the question asks you as a factual matter, what the legal fallout was. It requires you to analyze the charges, the convictions, and determine the maximum penalty under the statutes in effect at the time, and frankly, that's impossible for a lot of laymen to do on their own.
Do your due diligence BEFORE you fill out the 4473.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
I motion this be made a sticky so that it can quickly be referenced in the future. This can help a lot of people.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Thanks for sharing this! :cool:
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
I passed my NICS, have my LTCF, and the OP still scared me.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
But I lie on all my welfare forms and the state doesn't do anything.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SHEPHERD321
But I lie on all my welfare forms and the state doesn't do anything.
That is because the state WANTS you on welfare. The state DOESN'T want you to own a gun.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Great post and great info. Thanks for looking out for us and keeping us up to date. I second a motion for a sticky. Gotta spread rep around before I can tag you again.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GunLawyer001
the State Police are referring close to 100% of all denials for follow-up prosecution.
Any idea of the round numbers per week or month?
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kimtyson
I passed my NICS, have my LTCF, and the OP still scared me.
I have run through PICS many times, have my LTCF and a C&R...and this scared me too
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
internet troll
I motion this be made a sticky so that it can quickly be referenced in the future. This can help a lot of people.
^^^^^ In red above.
I agree calls for a sticky.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
It's already a sticky under
Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum > Law & Politics > Pennsylvania
Possibly it should be a stickied elsewhere on the board as well.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twency
It's already a sticky under
Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum > Law & Politics > Pennsylvania
Possibly it should be a stickied elsewhere on the board as well.
Me.:o
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
If a person was arrested for DUI, completed ARD and probation and had their record expunged, how long should that person wait to apply for a LTCF or to buy a gun to be sure the DUI does not show up in the PICS check?
Not me, BTW, I've had my LTCF for years and have purchased many guns :)
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
It may be helpful to post links here to posts where someone describes being prosecuted for their PICS denial. For example, this one:
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...on-rights.html
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Back in August 1999, I was 30 years old and I tried to take my own life by taking a bottle of prescription pills. I took like 15 pills and my mother walked in on me and caught me taking the last pill in the bottle. She rushed me straight to the emergency room and I had my stomach pumped. I woke up in the mental ward at the hospital with my arms strapped to the side of the bed. I asked a male nurse who walked past my room what I was doing there and he just said its standard procedure. I stayed in the hospital mental ward for a week or 120 hours. A nurse came up to me and said youre getting released. After about an hour I was finally home. This subject was never mentioned again at my house or anywhere for that matter as I had brought shame on my family. November 2012 on election nite somebody tried to kick the back door of my house in and rob me. I was upstairs sleeping. For about 2 months after that, I was afraid to sleep at nite fearing that somebody was going to try to rob me again. From August 1999 to November 2012 I have never had an interest in owning a gun, shooting a gun or even holding a gun. After thinking about it for sometime, In July 2013, I decided that I was going to buy a gun. I wanted to buy a 357. I was even going to take a safety course on guns. I go to a local gun dealer and filled out all the paperwork for PICS, NICS, and the ATF. The dealer calls PICS and after about 10 minutes of waiting he says that they denied me. He gives me a challenge form to fill out and send in to PSP. I did that and about a month and a half later, I get a final denial letter from PSP stating why I was denied. It was because of an involuntary commitment from back in August 1999. I started researching what an involuntary commitment was. I found out that a 302 is what they called an involuntary commitment. I have never heard of a 302 before in my life. I also found out that I can never own a handgun in the Commonwealth of Pa for the rest of my life. I figured that was it. Almost 6 months later in January 2014, I get a phone call from a Trooper from PSP. I didnt answer the phone and he left a voicemail. I thought it was a prank call from somebody playing jokes or something. The next day I got onto the Pa Court Dockets link and looked my name up. I had 2 charges against me. 1 was a Felony 3, Materially false written statement - purchase, delivery, transfer of a firearm. and the other charges was a Misdemeanor 3, False written statement. Right then and there I called the best criminal defense attorney in the city I reside in. I stated what I had looked up online and that a Trooper from PSP called me and left me a voicemail. He called the District Magistrate where the charges were filed out of and explained what was going on. The District Magistrate told him to tell me to turn myself in and I would be released on ROR. I called the Trooper back and he basically stated that I was being charged for marking "NO" on the PICS form saying I never was involuntary commited before. He also said that if I plead guilty to the Misdemeanor 3 that I would probably be giving ARD. I thought why should I plead guilty to something that I didnt do. I didnt know I was prohibited from buying a gun. I didnt know I was a 302 statistic. Nobody ever told me that I was prohibited from owning a gun. Not the doctor, not PSP, not the hospital, none of the nurses or anybody for that matter. I was never given any documentation on such matter of prohibition of a firearm. I hire this attorney which Im not going to even tell you how much money it cost me. When it comes to attorneys you get what you pay for. My preliminary hearing was continued until March of 2014. I had to go into work where I am employed as a Corporate Security Officer for a Forune 500 company for 10 years and tell HR what had happened. I had the embarrassment of my name getting put in the newspaper. I had to go to the local PSP barracks and get fingerprinted like a criminal. I didnt sleep or eat for almost 2 months. I lost 20LBS because of all of this. My attorney got a copy of my 302 records from the county MH/MR office. He showed them to me at his office and nowhere does it state on there that I was prohibited from owning a gun. My attorney also told me that it was marked outpatient on my 302 records. My preliminary hearing was in March 2014 and my attorney walks in and says these charges are inadequate and he was going back to talk to the Trooper and the judge. He came out 10 minutes and said the charges were withdrawn. I looked up at the ceiling and outloud "Thank You God." He said I was free to go. All the expense of hiring the best attorney in the city I reside in and the fear of losing my job and the embarrassment of my name in the newspaper and all for what? I didnt know I was a 302 case and I didnt know I was prohibited from owning a gun. My attorney stated to me that if I wanted to get this all cleared up that I would have to hire an attorney who specializes in nothing but civil rights and firearm restoration. What Gunlawyer001 (Phil Kline) says is totally true. Do yourself a favor and if you were ever in a mental ward in a hospital, if you have any crime that my prohibit you from owning a gun, If anything doesnt seem right, hire an attorney to go over things for you. I am putting my story out here because I dont want anybody else to go through what I had to go through. I have had the same job for over 10 years now. I havent been in trouble with law enforcement for anything but a couple of speeding tickets. I own my own home. I pay my taxes and do everything right that Im supposed to do as a law abiding citizen. My 2nd amendment rights were stripped from me without due process. I hope this can help out so nobody else out there has to go through what I did. DO NOT depend on politicians passing laws or anything else for that matter to help people possibly restore their firearm rights. They have proven time after time that they are not going to do anything about this. Something should be done to notify people if they ever become a 302 case, that they are not allowed to purchase a firearm.
Thank You
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Thank you for sharing. I hope you don't mind, but I reformatted your post when quoting it for easier reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skreamz
Back in August 1999, I was 30 years old and I tried to take my own life by taking a bottle of prescription pills. I took like 15 pills and my mother walked in on me and caught me taking the last pill in the bottle.
She rushed me straight to the emergency room and I had my stomach pumped. I woke up in the mental ward at the hospital with my arms strapped to the side of the bed. I asked a male nurse who walked past my room what I was doing there and he just said its standard procedure. I stayed in the hospital mental ward for a week or 120 hours. A nurse came up to me and said youre getting released. After about an hour I was finally home. This subject was never mentioned again at my house or anywhere for that matter as I had brought shame on my family.
November 2012 on election nite somebody tried to kick the back door of my house in and rob me. I was upstairs sleeping. For about 2 months after that, I was afraid to sleep at nite fearing that somebody was going to try to rob me again. From August 1999 to November 2012 I have never had an interest in owning a gun, shooting a gun or even holding a gun. After thinking about it for sometime,
In July 2013, I decided that I was going to buy a gun. I wanted to buy a 357. I was even going to take a safety course on guns. I go to a local gun dealer and filled out all the paperwork for PICS, NICS, and the ATF. The dealer calls PICS and after about 10 minutes of waiting he says that they denied me. He gives me a challenge form to fill out and send in to PSP. I did that and about a month and a half later, I get a final denial letter from PSP stating why I was denied. It was because of an involuntary commitment from back in August 1999.
I started researching what an involuntary commitment was. I found out that a 302 is what they called an involuntary commitment. I have never heard of a 302 before in my life. I also found out that I can never own a handgun in the Commonwealth of Pa for the rest of my life. I figured that was it.
Almost 6 months later in January 2014, I get a phone call from a Trooper from PSP. I didnt answer the phone and he left a voicemail. I thought it was a prank call from somebody playing jokes or something. The next day I got onto the Pa Court Dockets link and looked my name up. I had 2 charges against me. 1 was a Felony 3, Materially false written statement - purchase, delivery, transfer of a firearm. and the other charges was a Misdemeanor 3, False written statement.
Right then and there I called the best criminal defense attorney in the city I reside in. I stated what I had looked up online and that a Trooper from PSP called me and left me a voicemail. He called the District Magistrate where the charges were filed out of and explained what was going on. The District Magistrate told him to tell me to turn myself in and I would be released on ROR.
I called the Trooper back and he basically stated that I was being charged for marking "NO" on the PICS form saying I never was involuntary commited before. He also said that if I plead guilty to the Misdemeanor 3 that I would probably be giving ARD. I thought why should I plead guilty to something that I didnt do. I didnt know I was prohibited from buying a gun. I didnt know I was a 302 statistic. Nobody ever told me that I was prohibited from owning a gun. Not the doctor, not PSP, not the hospital, none of the nurses or anybody for that matter. I was never given any documentation on such matter of prohibition of a firearm.
I hire this attorney which Im not going to even tell you how much money it cost me. When it comes to attorneys you get what you pay for. My preliminary hearing was continued until March of 2014. I had to go into work where I am employed as a Corporate Security Officer for a Forune 500 company for 10 years and tell HR what had happened. I had the embarrassment of my name getting put in the newspaper. I had to go to the local PSP barracks and get fingerprinted like a criminal. I didnt sleep or eat for almost 2 months. I lost 20LBS because of all of this.
My attorney got a copy of my 302 records from the county MH/MR office. He showed them to me at his office and nowhere does it state on there that I was prohibited from owning a gun. My attorney also told me that it was marked outpatient on my 302 records.
My preliminary hearing was in March 2014 and my attorney walks in and says these charges are inadequate and he was going back to talk to the Trooper and the judge. He came out 10 minutes and said the charges were withdrawn. I looked up at the ceiling and outloud "Thank You God." He said I was free to go.
All the expense of hiring the best attorney in the city I reside in and the fear of losing my job and the embarrassment of my name in the newspaper and all for what? I didnt know I was a 302 case and I didnt know I was prohibited from owning a gun. My attorney stated to me that if I wanted to get this all cleared up that I would have to hire an attorney who specializes in nothing but civil rights and firearm restoration.
What Gunlawyer001 (Phil Kline) says is totally true. Do yourself a favor and if you were ever in a mental ward in a hospital, if you have any crime that my prohibit you from owning a gun, If anything doesnt seem right, hire an attorney to go over things for you.
I am putting my story out here because I dont want anybody else to go through what I had to go through. I have had the same job for over 10 years now. I havent been in trouble with law enforcement for anything but a couple of speeding tickets. I own my own home. I pay my taxes and do everything right that Im supposed to do as a law abiding citizen. My 2nd amendment rights were stripped from me without due process.
I hope this can help out so nobody else out there has to go through what I did. DO NOT depend on politicians passing laws or anything else for that matter to help people possibly restore their firearm rights. They have proven time after time that they are not going to do anything about this. Something should be done to notify people if they ever become a 302 case, that they are not allowed to purchase a firearm.
Thank You
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
What is the difference between a "False statement" (Misdemeanor) and "Materially False Statement" (Felony)? Also, he only made one statement so how can face two charges?
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Great post. This is good to know because people who want to buy a gun are always asking if I can just call PICS and see if they're good to go. I always tell them no, and now I have a better reason to. Plus, it always makes me suspicious that there could be a straw purchase in the future..
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamOzzy
What is the difference between a "False statement" (Misdemeanor) and "Materially False Statement" (Felony)? Also, he only made one statement so how can face two charges?
It is not unusual for a criminal act to incur multiple charges each having differing criminal elements. The DA can subsequently trim down the charges or use some as a 'bargain chip' during plea dealing. He can also go to trial with multiple charges giving the jury the ability to convict on 'lesser' charges.
In the instant case of Ralph Faivre the charges were:
18 § 4904 §§ A1
Quote:
§ 4904. Unsworn falsification to authorities.
(a) In general.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
second degree if, with intent to mislead a public servant in
performing his official function, he:
(1) makes any written false statement which he does not
believe to be true;
(2) submits or invites reliance on any writing which he
knows to be forged, altered or otherwise lacking in
authenticity; or
(3) submits or invites reliance on any sample, specimen,
map, boundary mark, or other object which he knows to be
false.
(b) Statements "under penalty".--A person commits a
misdemeanor of the third degree if he makes a written false
statement which he does not believe to be true, on or pursuant
to a form bearing notice, authorized by law, to the effect that
false statements made therein are punishable.
and
18 § 6111 §§ G4II
Quote:
(4) Any person, purchaser or transferee commits a felony of the third degree if, in connection with the purchase, delivery or transfer of a firearm under this chapter, he knowingly and intentionally:
(i) makes any materially false oral statement;
(ii) makes any materially false written statement, including a statement on any form promulgated by Federal or State agencies; or
(iii) willfully furnishes or exhibits any false identification intended or likely to deceive the seller, licensed dealer or licensed manufacturer.
I'm unclear as to the application of 4904(a)(1) as opposed to 4904(b) since a 'public servant' was not involved.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tl_3237
It is not unusual for a criminal act to incur multiple charges each having differing criminal elements. The DA can subsequently trim down the charges or use some as a 'bargain chip' during plea dealing. He can also go to trial with multiple charges giving the jury the ability to convict on 'lesser' charges.
In the instant case of Ralph Faivre the charges were:
18 § 4904 §§ A1
and
18 § 6111 §§ G4II
I'm unclear as to the application of 4904(a)(1) as opposed to 4904(b) since a 'public servant' was not involved.
If you try to buy a gun and fill out the 4473 and a Record of Sale Form, you may be lying twice. If you challenge a denial, that might be a third time. There are associated crimes for deceiving the FFL, lying on the forms, sending the record of Sale and/or the Challenge to the public servants at the PSP.....
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
This really should be out on the front of the website, not just a sticky.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Funny how laaws like this might prevent someone who owns guns from seeking proffesional help when they need it for fear off having their rights taken away and thousands of dollars of legally purchased firearms confiscated. Simply because they were depressed or having anxiety issues and some doctor puts them down as 302.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Why should it be illegal to try to buy a gun legally in the first place? What is the big deal if I have my PICS called in and it results in denial? No guns change hands, so no harm.
Why do we have an applicant fill out a form BEFORE calling it in? Is it just to give the .gov an opportunity to charge people with perjury? Why not simply ask for a name, pre-clear it with PICS, and *then* proceed with the sale? The public interest would be served just the same, and innocent mistakes wouldn't result in unnecessary prosecutions.
And one final question: When will we see John Oliver do a segment about the absurdity of all of this? I'll hold my breath......
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
I havent been posting on here for a while but here is my two cents on the whole matter of it all. Its all about gun control, whether it be not allowing somebody to own a gun or making it harder than hell for somebody wanting to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to try to own a gun. If the government says you dont get a gun then sadly enough you dont get a gun. Whatever happened to the 2nd amendment rights of the citizens of this country shall not be infringed upon? That doesnt stack up to anything. They do what they want. If you try to go buy a gun then they say youre not allowed then bam thats it. Then they charge you for trying to exercise your 2nd amendment rights. What I dont get is somebody who was ever involuntarily committed loses their rights. They can still serve on a jury and still can vote. Felons cant vote or own a gun or serve on a jury. Felons can get their 2nd amendment rights back a hell of a lot easier than somebody who has a 302 on their record. Whats even worse is there is no way to remedy this without paying out thousands of dollars for an attorney. The politicians need to pass some kind of bill for some kind of relief for people who are in my shows like a bunch of other people across this great commonwealth of ours. I still think that there needs to be some kind of class action lawsuit brought against the state for just stripping away peoples rights without due process. Before its all said and done with, nobody will have guns if they get their way. They put charges on you all because its a money thing. They all make money from it some how whether it be the PSP, adult probation, ARD, or whatever else you can think of. They just passed a bill that would make municipalties liable for costs if they try enforcing their own gun ordinances. How about passing a law that has a remedy for people who cannot own a gun to protect themselves or their families. I want to see it Pa HB 1243 ever comes up again for vote. It wont. Anyways, Im done rambling on about this. To answer your question Mobo215, Its all bout gun control and the state making money. Thats what it boils down to.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
I was looking for a clarification on Mr. Kline's initial post. It stated that
". . . which does not really mean that at all; if you can get through the multi-page instructions on the 4473, and read Paragraph 6, you'll find that it REALLY means (this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less)."
However it seems that the sentence detailing what it means was cut off. Clarification of the actual meaning would be very helpful. Thanks so much.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GunLawyer001
Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
. . . which does not really mean that at all; if you can get through the multi-page instructions on the 4473, and read Paragraph 6, you'll find that it REALLY means
(this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
45acp
I was looking for a clarification on Mr. Kline's initial post. It stated that
". . . which does not really mean that at all; if you can get through the multi-page instructions on the 4473, and read Paragraph 6, you'll find that it REALLY means (this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less)."
However it seems that the sentence detailing what it means was cut off. Clarification of the actual meaning would be very helpful. Thanks so much.
I've quoted it above. What he is talking about is the red highlighted portion that was immediately before what you originally quoted. He is pointing out that while the question on the form says punishable by more than a year, when you read the instruction on the back of the form it tells you that state misdemeanors with a maximum sentence of 2 years or less are not prohibiting.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t1066
I've quoted it above. What he is talking about is the red highlighted portion that was immediately before what you originally quoted. He is pointing out that while the question on the form says punishable by more than a year, when you read the instruction on the back of the form it tells you that state misdemeanors with a maximum sentence of 2 years or less are not prohibiting.
You are correct. To lay it out even more clearly:
Form asks: Have you been convicted of any crime whose statute allows for a maximum sentence of more than 1 year?
The back of the form, in the instructions, "clarifies" this and says that if the crime was a state misdemeanor (not a federal crime, and not a state felony or other non-misdemeanor), and the maximum penalty was over 1 year but not more than 2 years, then you should answer "no" to the question.
In practice, here in PA this means that almost every 1st degree misdemeanor is a federal prohibitor, but 2nd degree misdemeanors (being punishable by up to 2 years but not a day more) are not. However, some Misdemeanor 2's may be "enumerated offenses" under state law, or they may be misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence, or may otherwise be prohibiting.
Your best bet, if you're ever been convicted of anything, is to BE SURE that it's not a prohibitor BEFORE you walk into a gun shop and start filling out forms. The questions are all available online (Google "ATF 4473"), read them and DON'T GUESS. This isn't like pretending that you've read the license agreement for that new software and checking "YES, I HAVE READ THE LICENSE TERMS AND I AGREE". It's not like filling out the medical history form at the doctor's office where you kinda sorta remember having chicken pox.
This is a test where there are 2 possible grades: 100% correct, or criminal prosecution.
You should aim for 100%.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
My boyfriend is having an issue passing through PICS. In 1999 he was charged for getting into an argument with his girlfriend at the time. The way it was processed made turned it into a domestic violence charge. He has never been in any kind of trouble since. No jail time, only a small fine an and anger management class. It has been over 15 years. We have been trying to get this cleared up. Any insight on what steps we can take?
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ssuarez
No jail time, only a small fine an and anger management class. It has been over 15 years. We have been trying to get this cleared up. Any insight on what steps we can take?
The bold indicates to me that he either pled or was found guilty. If that's the case, as far as I know, the 15 years that have passed mean nothing in regards to the conviction. The 'domestic violence' connection is what makes the conviction prohibiting, regardless of the possible and/or actual sentence.
My understanding is that the only possible chance to remove the disability would be a pardon, followed by an expungement.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
He pled nolo contendo which at the time was how his lawyer told him to plead to not have to deal with all of this. What we have found is that if you pled that way you should have just taken the guilty verdict anyway. He was 21 the girl was 18 and they were dating. Didnt live together but apparently for domestic violence all you need is to be dating.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ssuarez
He pled nolo contendo which at the time was how his lawyer told him to plead to not have to deal with all of this. What we have found is that if you pled that way you should have just taken the guilty verdict anyway. He was 21 the girl was 18 and they were dating. Didnt live together but apparently for domestic violence all you need is to be dating.
There is a real difference between pleading "guilty" and "nolo contendere", in that the latter doesn't require you to admit to having committed the crime. You just say that the DA may have enough evidence to convince a jury, and that you're not contesting the charges.
That matters to some people. I know it would grate on me to have to say in open court that I did bad things which I didn't do.
But when it comes to the consequences, it counts as a finding of guilt, and the system treats it like any other conviction.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ssuarez
He pled nolo contendo which at the time was how his lawyer told him to plead to not have to deal with all of this. What we have found is that if you pled that way you should have just taken the guilty verdict anyway. He was 21 the girl was 18 and they were dating. Didnt live together but apparently for domestic violence all you need is to be dating.
Is there any chance that the attorney involved was David Keller, from Keller, Keller, and Beck?
The reason I ask is that I have had other individuals tell me that Mr. Keller advised them to plead 'nolo contendre' on prohibiting charges, with the assurance that such a plea would not harm their rights.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this proposed legislation. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...cosponId=15997
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LBaker
Another law requiring something to be done that should already be going on, simply by the nature of the job description of the involved parties (PSP and AG). If they don't want to do it, they won't, whether 1 or 100 laws say they should.
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Thanks for the information, great post!
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LBaker
I don't know if I like that proposal. It seems that it could be the set up similar to Rhode island's "may issue" permit system.
Wasn't there a bill last year regarding ending this "prohibited for life" BS? If they can be released into society----work, pay taxes, etc then their rights should be returned. ...end if storyou. They let prisoners vote yet people released that are model citizens continue to be denied their right to bear arms. Needs fixing...
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Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikelets456
I don't know if I like that proposal. It seems that it could be the set up similar to Rhode island's "may issue" permit system.
Wasn't there a bill last year regarding ending this "prohibited for life" BS? If they can be released into society----work, pay taxes, etc then their rights should be returned. ...end if storyou. They let prisoners vote yet people released that are model citizens continue to be denied their right to bear arms. Needs fixing...
I'm torn on this proposal. Even though it is what gun owners have been arguing, I'm a little skeptical when I see a mandate like this, possibly without discretion to prosecute. People make mistakes...