FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Did my first FTF long gun sale through this website, a little over a month ago, it was so simple, I had to triple check the laws to make sure what i had just done was legal (checked beforehand also).
Now I have purchased my big $$$ rifle and i am looking to unload a couple of me lesser plinkers and such. Here is the question.
A friend of mine is on a tight budget, he is going to school in PA on his GI Bill a couple of hours from Pittsburgh, where I live. I am willing to sell him one of my rifles at a discount that I could not offer to the general public. We served in the same USMC Unit together so i know he is stand up guy, not a felon or anything like that.
The problem is that he still has and uses his Drv. Lic. from South Carolina I think, but maybe NC. Am I able to sell him one of my rifles? Or not? He is not willing to get his PA DL just yet because he may transfer to a school in his home state and wants the instate tuition if he does that.
Thanks for the Help.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
if he's claiming any other state as his home of record it's illegal for you to sell him a rifle without going through a FFL. attending college in PA doesn't make you eligible to purchase long guns FTF in PA.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
As said ^^^^^^. Although you can't do a FTF (by law), your buddy can buy a longarm from any FFL as long as he meets the laws of the state where he is buying it and the laws of his state of residence.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wellcraft
if he's claiming any other state as his home of record it's illegal for you to sell him a rifle without going through a FFL. attending college in PA doesn't make you eligible to purchase long guns FTF in PA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xringshooter
As said ^^^^^^. Although you can't do a FTF (by law), your buddy can buy a longarm from any FFL as long as he meets the laws of the state where he is buying it and the laws of his state of residence.
Depends on whether he is 'residing' in Pa at the time of the sale.
The only proscription to such a sale would possibly be 18 USC 922(a)(5) - sale between residents of differing states. There is no Pa state proscription to such a sale that I'm aware of.
As to the Federal issue we have the attendant CFR regulation which defines residency somewhat more broadly that what we normally encounter.
Quote:
TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.
State of residence.
The State in which
an individual resides. An individual resides
in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that
State. If an individual is on active duty as a
member of the Armed Forces, the individual's
State of residence is the State in
which his or her permanent duty station is
located. An alien who is legally in the
United States shall be considered to be a
resident of a State only if the alien is residing
in the State and has resided in the
State for a period of at least 90 days prior
to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm.
The following are examples that illustrate
this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in
State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting,
fishing, business, or other type of trip. A
does not become a resident of State Y by
reason of such trip.
Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and
maintains a home in State X and a home
in State Y. A resides in State X except for
weekends or the summer months of the
year and in State Y for the weekends or
the summer months of the year. During
the time that A actually resides in State X,
A is a resident of State X, and during the
time that A actually resides in State Y, A is
a resident of State Y.
So if the buyer had a bona fide residence in Pa, such as an (apartment/house) that he uses while in school, and he is actually in residence there at the time of the sale, then arguably wouldn't he be considered a Pa resident for purposes of 18 USC Chapter 44 (which includes section 922)?
Now the drawback - he could not take the firearm to a residence in another state unless he were in the act of moving his household from Pa to that residence unless he then goes through an FFL [18 USC 922(a)(3)]. For example, while still attending school he decides to take the firearm back to his Carolina residence and stay there for a while (summer break?). This would arguable violate 922(a)(3). Now if he were finished school and closed his Pa residence then he could, per BATFE ruling, move that firearm ALONG WITH HIS HOUSEHOLD GOODS to the new residence.
'Xringshooter' - did you ever run across such dual (non-military) residency as an FFL? If so what did you accept of proof of residency when presented with an out-of-state DL?
Always wondered about this scenario but never got any definitive discussions in other threads? Anyone?
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tl_3237
Depends on whether he is 'residing' in Pa at the time of the sale.
The only proscription to such a sale would possibly be 18 USC 922(a)(5) - sale between residents of differing states. There is no Pa state proscription to such a sale that I'm aware of.
As to the Federal issue we have the attendant CFR regulation which defines residency somewhat more broadly that what we normally encounter.
So if the buyer had a bona fide residence in Pa, such as an (apartment/house) that he uses while in school, and he is actually in residence there at the time of the sale, then arguably wouldn't he be considered a Pa resident for purposes of 18 USC Chapter 44 (which includes section 922)?
Now the drawback - he could not take the firearm to a residence in another state unless he were in the act of moving his household from Pa to that residence unless he then goes through an FFL [18 USC 922(a)(3)]. For example, while still attending school he decides to take the firearm back to his Carolina residence and stay there for a while (summer break?). This would arguable violate 922(a)(3). Now if he were finished school and closed his Pa residence then he could, per BATFE ruling, move that firearm ALONG WITH HIS HOUSEHOLD GOODS to the new residence.
In this case the statute deals with firearms, and this definition of a firearm is a handgun or a SBR/SBS. A resident in any state can buy a longarm from a FFL in any state as long as he abides by the laws in both states.
I believe it could be argued that he wasn't "making a home" in PA as he is temporarily here just to go to school. Now if he could prove that he actually owned a home in the other state (not just lived with his parents) and he owned (or had a long term lease on a place, not just renting during school and next time school is in session he has a different address) then that would probably qualify him as a 2 state resident. I think this section deals with people that actually live at two permanent residences (ie, own and live in a place in PA and (own and maintain, not rent) a vacation home in DE that they go to every weekend and in the summer). Or their job is such that they own, live in, and maintain homes in 2 different states.
Quote:
'Xringshooter' - did you ever run across such dual (non-military) residency as an FFL? If so what did you accept of proof of residency when presented with an out-of-state DL?
Always wondered about this scenario but never got any definitive discussions in other threads? Anyone?
I actually have but it was fairly easy for me, the person was a family friend. he was buying a .22 handgun to plink around with. They lived in State College for a long time and own a home here. They moved to FL (they're an older couple) and bought a home there. They transferred their DL's and such to FL because they spend from October to June in FL and then come back to SC from end of June to end of September, every year. To make sure everything was ok, he gave me utility bills and such to prove he maintained the property in SC (they actually lock it up and one of their kids checks on it every now and then). When I called the PICS, they asked what I had to prove he was a 2 state resident I told them and they just told me to attach the docs to my copies of the forms. The operator then told me to attach a note on the PSP copy of the SP4-113 telling them which operator I talked to at the firearms unit and what evidence I had on file to prove the claim. Everything went ok.
What I didn't want to say but am now. His buddy could sell the rifle to a FFL and the out of stater could buy the rifle from the FFL. Although it would seem that they are skirting the FTF sell law, it actually would be legal and by buying it from the FFL and it being a longarm, there's not a big deal when the FFL calls in to PICS.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Thanks gentlemen for all of that detailed information. I was not a firearm owner or enthusiast before I served in the military and I always want to be informed on all laws and regulations when dealing with firearms.
When purchasing my first firearms I remember thinking that "I do not really care about the laws on how to sell this if i have to, cause i am keeping this hardware FOREVER!" Well 10 months later i am turning over and purchasing new firearms on a month by month basis and this is a tough one because i want to help out my buddy here. Thanks Again.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Now have confirmation on college students state of residency for Federal Gun Law purposes:
Quote:
27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
Applying the above example to out-of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
[ATFB 1980-4 25]
(Thanks PaBimmerGuy :) )
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...ml#post1446077
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PittsburghOzzy
Did my first FTF long gun sale through this website, a little over a month ago, it was so simple, I had to triple check the laws to make sure what i had just done was legal (checked beforehand also).
Now I have purchased my big $$$ rifle and i am looking to unload a couple of me lesser plinkers and such. Here is the question.
A friend of mine is on a tight budget, he is going to school in PA on his GI Bill a couple of hours from Pittsburgh, where I live. I am willing to sell him one of my rifles at a discount that I could not offer to the general public. We served in the same USMC Unit together so i know he is stand up guy, not a felon or anything like that.
The problem is that he still has and uses his Drv. Lic. from South Carolina I think, but maybe NC. Am I able to sell him one of my rifles? Or not? He is not willing to get his PA DL just yet because he may transfer to a school in his home state and wants the instate tuition if he does that.
Thanks for the Help.
OP:
Based on the previous post of ATF ruling, looks like your buddy is considered a PA resident while residing in Pa and going to school. As such this removes the Federal impediment to the FTF longarm sale. As long as he is not otherwise prohibited (felon, age, etc) looks like you're good to go from the seller's perspective.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tl_3237
So if the buyer had a bona fide residence in Pa, such as an (apartment/house) that he uses while in school,
dormitories count too.
Quote:
Now the drawback - he could not take the firearm to a residence in another state unless he were in the act of moving his household from Pa to that residence unless he then goes through an FFL
under your reading you would have to involve an ffl everytime you go to your hunting cabin in west virginia.
or what if you move to another state and leave everything except your guns behind?
once you legally execute a 4473 in one state atf considers the matter closed. you can take that gun with you anywhere that state laws permit.
Re: FTF Long Gun Sale, out of state DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PaBimmerGuy
dormitories count too.
Yup
under your reading you would have to involve an ffl everytime you go to your hunting cabin in west virginia.
No because you would not importing an out-of-state acquisitioned firearm into your state of residence. Your would be bringing it from your state of residence and presumably returning it to same at the end of your trip.
or what if you move to another state and leave everything except your guns behind?
Are you saying that you aren't moving any other household goods? If not, what are you doing with them? The ATF has provided guidance that if you are basically closing one residence and 'moving' to another in a different state, then you can bring your firearms with you during the actual moving process. They qualify that guidance as being with the 'movement of household goods'. If the ony thing you move are the guns then I guess they would be considered the 'household goods' in and of themselves.
once you legally execute a 4473 in one state atf considers the matter closed. you can take that gun with you anywhere that state laws permit.
Any cites for that? Also what about firearms legally aquired without the use of 4473's?
Colored inserts mine.
Quote:
18 USC § 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
