Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Sorry, I just cannot get my head around this after reading.
1. I want to make a trust - To do this, I have to get a trust (likely from a lawyer), and then I have to send paperword, picture and fingerprints to ATF to "register" the trust? At this point I have added no guns, right? I am just registering the trust. DO CO-Trustees, who I want to be able to use the weapons without me there also have to send prints and picture?
2. OK... so then after I send in the trust stuff to ATF, so I get something back from them??? How do I know they accepted it?
3. OK, now after I get the paperwork back, that trust is accepted, I have a CZ Scorpion pistol I want to add to the trust. So, I have to send a form 1 in for that, naming the Trust as owner, and I have to send in fingerprints and picture, AGAIN.... right? Does co-trustee have send them AGAIN, too?
This is my confusion... I don't understand if I have to send ATF something to establish the trust with them, before I can start sending Form 1's to them, or if I should send form 1's along with paperwork to register trust....
Please somebody explain clearly and precisely for me... thanks.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Just send the trust and info in with the form1.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lx200
Sorry, I just cannot get my head around this after reading.
1. I want to make a trust - To do this, I have to get a trust (likely from a lawyer), and then I have to send paperword, picture and fingerprints to ATF to "register" the trust? At this point I have added no guns, right? I am just registering the trust. DO CO-Trustees, who I want to be able to use the weapons without me there also have to send prints and picture?
2. OK... so then after I send in the trust stuff to ATF, so I get something back from them??? How do I know they accepted it?
3. OK, now after I get the paperwork back, that trust is accepted, I have a CZ Scorpion pistol I want to add to the trust. So, I have to send a form 1 in for that, naming the Trust as owner, and I have to send in fingerprints and picture, AGAIN.... right? Does co-trustee have send them AGAIN, too?
This is my confusion... I don't understand if I have to send ATF something to establish the trust with them, before I can start sending Form 1's to them, or if I should send form 1's along with paperwork to register trust....
Please somebody explain clearly and precisely for me... thanks.
I am not a lawyer!
When I first started buying NFA I used a trust but that was before their RULE change which required every member of the trust to be fingerprinted & photographed. I now only buy as an individual, as the burden outweighs the point of the original trust.
1. The procedure I was advised to follow was- you send a copy of the trust along with the Form 1 or Form 4, each time you make a purchase and submit a form 1/4 for approval. To my knowledge you do not send the ATF a Trust document without a Form 1/4.
2. Yes every Trustee must be fingerprinted & photographed. I am not aware how frequently it must be done, but it must be done on your first purchase.
This is my personal opinion (fwiw)- Expect to pay a lawyer $500+ for a trust OR you can do your own online for far less(not my recommendation).
Unless you have estate planning needs, forget about the trust and just purchase as an individual(<again just my opinion)
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
As others have said, you send a copy of the trust with the Form 1 or 4 application. Fingerprint cards are also needed for all 'responsible persons'/trustees. If you e-file a Form 1 online, ATF notifies you via email about sending the fingerprint cards.
Regarding trust vs. individual, another issue for me was that I wanted family members to be able to use NFA items without me being present, so for me I wanted the trust. I've communicated with many people that have done the following, and a couple even said ATF gave its approval: you can draft a notarized amendment to the trust removing other trustees, file, get approved, then either destroy the amendment or make another reinstating them.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
And THIS, boys and girls, is why after ten $200 tax stamps - and counting - I will NEVER use a Trust.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
To break it down (and IANAL):
Individual application - NO Trust
1. Fill out the Form 1 or Form 4 completely, sign when ready to send
2. Attach 2 filled out fingerprint cards
3. Attach 2 passport photos where indicated on the F1 /F4
4. Pay for the tax stamp (check/mo/cc)
Send to the ATF and wait. Send CLEO copy to your CLEO.
Trust - NOT individual
1. Have trust set up with responsible persons names - you can also add additional RP's to the trust at later dates. I have not found anywhere that it says when you add a RP to the trust that you have to do the RPQ and send it to the ATF. You do need to insure the added RP is not prohibited.
2. Fill out Form 1 or Form 4
3. Include on F1/F4 responsible persons names (the person filling out the F1/F4 is also considered a responsible person)
3A. The person filling out the F1 or F4 DOES NOT fill out the Maker (F1) or Transferee (F4) information, they fill out a RPQ like the others do.
4. Have ALL responsible persons get fingerprinted (2 cards each) and passport photos taken
5. Have ALL responsible persons fill out the Responsible Persons Questionnaire (ATF Form 5320.23)
6. Have ALL responsible persons attach passport photos to RPQ where required
7. Attach Trust, ALL RPQ's, fingerprint cards, payment to the F1/F4
Send to the ATF and then wait. Send the CLEO copy to your CLEO (no trust is needed for CLEO)
If you have a trust and want to add another NFA item to it, ALL RP's again have to: fill out another RPQ, attach photos and provide fingerprint cards. Any time an NFA item is added to the trust this must be done.
You also have to send a copy of the trust for EVERY F1/F4 you send in, be it the 1st or 25th item.
Now, if you want multiple people to be able to use the NFA item on their own, away from you, you need a trust. If you want someone to use it while you are with/around them, then no trust is needed. Also a trust is not needed to transfer your NFA item(s) to your heirs. If they are designated in your will, the executor just gets a (tax free) Form 5 completed and when approved, hands the NFA item to the heir.
I think that covers most of it.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Thanks for the detailed response....
So if I add myself and my wife now, and register, let's say three guns.... then later, I want to add my kid as trustee.... Need just one set of fingerprints and photo, and he is good on all guns ???
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xringshooter
To break it down (and IANAL):
Individual application - NO Trust
1. Fill out the Form 1 or Form 4 completely, sign when ready to send
2. Attach 2 filled out fingerprint cards
3. Attach 2 passport photos where indicated on the F1 /F4
4. Pay for the tax stamp (check/mo/cc)
Send to the ATF and wait. Send CLEO copy to your CLEO.
Trust - NOT individual
1. Have trust set up with responsible persons names - you can also add additional RP's to the trust at later dates. I have not found anywhere that it says when you add a RP to the trust that you have to do the RPQ and send it to the ATF. You do need to insure the added RP is not prohibited.
2. Fill out Form 1 or Form 4
3. Include on F1/F4 responsible persons names (the person filling out the F1/F4 is also considered a responsible person)
3A. The person filling out the F1 or F4 DOES NOT fill out the Maker (F1) or Transferee (F4) information, they fill out a RPQ like the others do.
4. Have ALL responsible persons get fingerprinted (2 cards each) and passport photos taken
5. Have ALL responsible persons fill out the Responsible Persons Questionnaire (ATF Form 5320.23)
6. Have ALL responsible persons attach passport photos to RPQ where required
7. Attach Trust, ALL RPQ's, fingerprint cards, payment to the F1/F4
Send to the ATF and then wait. Send the CLEO copy to your CLEO (no trust is needed for CLEO)
If you have a trust and want to add another NFA item to it, ALL RP's again have to: fill out another RPQ, attach photos and provide fingerprint cards. Any time an NFA item is added to the trust this must be done.
You also have to send a copy of the trust for EVERY F1/F4 you send in, be it the 1st or 25th item.
Now, if you want multiple people to be able to use the NFA item on their own, away from you, you need a trust. If you want someone to use it while you are with/around them, then no trust is needed. Also a trust is not needed to transfer your NFA item(s) to your heirs. If they are designated in your will, the executor just gets a (tax free) Form 5 completed and when approved, hands the NFA item to the heir.
I think that covers most of it.
Thanks for the details.
Re: Make Trust, Do form 1's What Order ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lx200
Thanks for the detailed response....
So if I add myself and my wife now, and register, let's say three guns.... then later, I want to add my kid as trustee.... Need just one set of fingerprints and photo, and he is good on all guns ???
Truthfully, I don't really know. I haven't found any real directions on the ATF site that addresses adding (how to) RP's to a trust. I'll do a bit more searching and ask some others that deal with with a lot and see what the consensus is.
Edited: Did some looking and talking to people in the know and there is no provision for telling/sending anything to the ATF that you have added someone to the trust, it just is an amendment to the trust to add the person(s). You just have to be sure they are not prohibited.
All who I discussed this with (and two are lawyers who also own gun businesses and deal in NFA items) said the same thing, this is a void that is known by the ATF and they have just never addressed/clarified/ruled on it.
Here is what the ATF said about it in a Q&A letter about the new (in 2016) 41F provisions concerning Trusts and such for Form 1's and 4's:
Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same
requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a
new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change
after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must
contact the NFA Branch for guidance.
