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I know you don't need a permit to open carry if you are under 21 even without a permit
But I believe that is suspended under a state of emergency. Last I knew we have been under one for one reason or another for the last few years?
Is that still under effect? My daughter will by 19 in a about a month and has been wanting to carry
Other than here, I haven't heard anyone mention that caveat about the SOE. Is she going to walk out the front door and carry on? Or how is she going to get the gun to where she's going to carry? Transporting for the purpose of OCing is not permissible.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
Even if it's transported unloaded and cased, separate from the ammunition? I can't find the part of the legislation that covers open carry at the moment, but I seem to recall it falls under the same part that covers transport for hunting, target shooting, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter
Read the part that covers permissible transport. If it is not specifically mentioned there, it is excluded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson8x57
There is no current state of emergency. The legislature limited the governor's power because of the ongoing covid fiasco. Now, after 60 days, the legislature must approve any continuance.
Even unloaded and cased, unlicensed persons are limited to statutory exceptions when carrying/moving a gun outside of their home (PA law does not address or define "transport").
Minor or not, unlicensed OC is pretty much limited to remaining on foot, unless making a trip that falls under one of the scenarios specifically exempt from licensing.
Merely having a "firearm" in/on/upon a vehicle requires a LTCF as a PA resident. PA only exempts going to/from certain places. ...just to carry isn't one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson8x57
It is the same crime to carry a "firearm" in a vehicle without a LTCF as it is to carry concealed without a LTCF. ...the conviction of which and you lose your gun rights for life.
The exemptions are here: Section (b), and before (b)(9) and (10)(hunting, fishing, trapping and dog training) are afforded, you must have at minimum a Sportsmans Permit under section (c).
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...tn=6&subsctn=0
There are limited circumstances where she can OC.
The practical example I always use is walking the dog. Get her squared away with a good retention holster and make sure she's up to the responsibility for her occasions on foot.
I didn't think about transport. I have had my permit for like 10 years now, so I forgot how weird the transport laws are.
I guess as long as I am with her, it wouldn't matter?
Interesting question there. AFAIK (IANAL), she could loan you her gun since you have a LTCF and you may be able to give it back to her when you get on location. And I have wondered the same thing. If Mrs. Walleye and I were to attend a rally, could I loan her one of my guns once we got on location? She does not have a LTCF.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
Isn't there an "out" for carrying a pistol in a car owned by a valid LTCF carrier? Yes, I know it's a stretch and would be an uphill battle in court (certainly against the "spirit" of the loophole that is designed to protect those who borrow the car of an LTCF holder).Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter
Yes, there is, but it's dependent on who is the owner of the gun. Also, I agree with you, that it would end up being an 'affirmative defense' after charges were filed, and by no means a slam-dunk win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royinmontco
Quote:
(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.
Not necessarily. If you're together, but the gun is holstered on her hip, *SHE* is arguably "carrying" the gun, and unless making an exempted trip, could be seen to be outside of the law. If you took possession while in the vehicle, or stuck it in a box under your seat (no lock necessary, just creating "separation" from the custody and control of your daughter), IMO you'd be more likely to either not be charged or have an easier battle in court then sending her out alone and relying on 6106 (b)(13).Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
Also, if it's "daughter's gun" (perfectly legal), 6106 (b)(13) wouldn't apply.
Hot damn! Seems like it's been 10 years since open carry has been discussed here.
Now all we need is a "You'll get shot first" thread and it will be just like old times!!!
On topic:
It will be interesting to see if a "workaround" is discovered in this thread.
In all the years of this specific topic being discussed, I can't recall any resolution beyond "Carry pepper spray until you're 21 - it will come sooner than you think."
Good lord man are you in such a hurry for her to become prohibited?Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
No there ain't no work around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emptymag
Yes. You can't even stop at a restaurant for lunch with weapons in your car on the way back home from a range, to the best of my knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson8x57
§ 6106(b)(4), one can lawfully transport a firearm, as defined by PA, “if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.”
To...or from....not to or from and stopping to have a drink, buy groceries, or even take a crap.
Sorry, guess my question was too brief.
I was thinking about the gun being in the car, say in a safe in the cargo area or something. Our car is registered in my name. I am a licensed carried, and it's my car. Nothing banning my from transporting a weapon.
We get out, she throws the gun on her hip, there we go
IANAL but I think you're flirting with disaster there. Whilst you are allowed to pass ownership of your gun to your children with no paperwork, I question whether or not you are allowed to loan it to them, as you are with a LTCF holder.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
If you're with your daughter why not just carry yourself and keep the gun on your person? No legal issue there and she's also protected by you, although she wouldn't get to carry directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
Someone else mentioned the dog example, let her open carry anytime she's leaving the house and not using any type of transportation other than her feet. That would at least get her some practice until she turns 21 and can get her LTCF.
The open carry laws in PA are all but useless with the transportation clause. Trying to skirt them is a good way to end up with a felony and also lose your gun rights for life.
Soon to be followed by the how do I get my rights back thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
I agree. Say the young woman leaves her father for a while, is stopped by a police officer who asks how she got to where she is. Does she plead the Fifth? Mumble something about, but it's my dad's gun? He transported it so I could,,,,,oh forget that. I mean I need to contact a lawyer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter
Just wait. Life moves fast.
Nope, her gun. Gave it to her on her 18th birthday.
My car, my License to carry, is there a law that stops me from driving with her gun in my car? I am not being smart, I am asking. That's why I started the thread, to learn.
If she's in the car, there's no transfer issue.
But I am the one transporting it.
I find your question interesting but my gut is telling me it's not legal. IANAL but my thoughts are that you are not transporting it if it's not in your possession, she is. I'd like to ask another question...I'm guessing that you're not just posing a hypothetical scenario for learning purposes. Let's say that you are in the process of executing this mission and get stopped by a copper. Are you mentally and financially prepared for him/her to disagree with your assessment of the law and run you through due process?Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
This is what it comes down to whenever this is discussed. There could be loopholes around this stuff, but are you willing to fight it in court and more importantly is your daughter? It's her rights that are at stake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter
I agree, but I think it's much easier to "get away with this" (and I think the proposed actions are legal) if one remembers and asserts one's rights. Observing an OCer on foot is not RAS for a stop, and if one is initiated, it should be treated as a "mere encounter" and swiftly terminated by the non-LE party.Quote:
Originally Posted by R L Suehr
One would think this would be a little easier, and also not a foreign concept, when dad appears to be LE himself (based solely on his avatar choice).
Correct. I do work in LE. I also own a shepherd and at the time I joined the liberals were all against the Chase character as it was during the whole George Floyd thing. So it was a bit of a trifectaQuote:
Originally Posted by gnbrotz
I do understand that it's asserting rights, and possibly a loophole.
I used to work in law for about 10 years, so I am quite experienced in having to do this
But I really don't think it's even a loophole. I am the one transporting the firearm. I am also transporting her. It's my vehicle, in my name, and I am driving. She's not transporting anything, not even herself.
Now, if she were driving, maybe that would be different, but if I am operating my vehicle, I don't see how there's any law violation.
Let’s spin that around and see what would happen: she is driving your car, with your gun in it, and gets pulled over. She has an affirmative defense in court according to PA statute, because you have an LTCF. I don’t see any reason you can’t transport her, a gun (her gun), and allow her to OC once she gets out of the vehicle. Maybe you need to *hand her back* her weapon when you disembark from the journey, so that you were in temporary possession of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
I am sure there are plenty of LEOs who don’t know the intricacies of the situation and would let the courts sort it out, so as noted by GNBrotz, any encounter beyond that is consensual, best to walk away.
If you're having to contort to convince yourself you're in the clear - you probably are not in the clear.
IMHO, too much risk here with too little benefit. Recommending waiting until the girl is 21.
If I were an unsympathetic judge, I would make your life difficult once I understood the game you were playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallbump
I don't think you're really worried about it though because of your LEO connections.
I figured that from the start of the thread, but didn't really want to mention it, but the thought just keeps popping up the more you try to rationalize this.
Given real court decisions, it's more a matter of trying to guess in what fashion a judge might decide to just ignore the actual words written in the statute. Like when a judge decided that PA residents do not meet the definition of "any person".Quote:
Originally Posted by free
In a world where that can happen, whether you're following the letter *or* spirit of the law seems to be irrelevant.
I've decided to basically do what I want, just like everyone else, and then remain aware of potential penalties if caught, and act in a fashion that would minimize the risk of a LE encounter where some transgression might be discovered even if I fully assert my rights.
You can probably knowingly break the law and get away with it most of the time, and you can most certainly be revoked/arrested/charged even if you absolutely are not breaking any law.
Hmmm, it seems you had your mind made up in the first place. Why ask for any opinions? You seem to know more about the law and loopholes than anyone who replied. The moderator should just close this thread.
Actually, I really didn't know much about this until people posted different, relevant laws.
And although I work in law Enforcment, I really am not connected. I actually know very few officers on any of the various departments in my area, or state police.
And, this thread spun out from my original post. All I asked was is open carry still banned under state of emergency?". The first reply brought up transportation. I wasn't even worried about transportation when I started the thread.
I have been around forums enough that I understand why the thought is that I already knew answers, wasn't going to listen, etc...but certainly wasn't my intent.