Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.

In the interest of not hijacking a news article, the discussion is continued here.

Clearly this subject has been broached before. We're looking for responses specific to the following set of circumsances presented in the home invasion documented below.

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Originally Posted by Shawn.L

I am so glad no one beat me to posting this:

http://www.wpxi.com/video/14996930/index.html

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Here is the argument

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Originally Posted by MarcS

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Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

call me old fashion at my old age but She should have bought a shotgun and some #1 buck

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I prefer a 223 for home defense. Larger capacity, easier operation (pump action shotguns have a high learning curve to operate under stress), lower recoil (far less intimidating for a female shooter), and the ability to defeat body armor.

If four guys are breaking into your house, as was the case in that situation, i'd consider myself to be in a far better position with a rapid fire rifle and 30rd magazines than 7 rounds of buckshot in a pump action shotgun.

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FCS Response:

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Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

i could argue it is easier to get on target with a shotgun than a rifle but i own a eotech which makes my ar very point and shoot i just put the big circle on a man sized target within in the house ranges very quick sight.

Now when talking learning curve i would have to think it is easier to learn to use a pump shotty over a AR there are less controls on a pump shotgun than a AR

as for recoil you are correct but HD shotguns come in alot of flavors 410 20 12 a knoxx stock will make recoil a moot point

and today some of the semi auto shotguns would be good too


Personally i dont want to turn this into a whole 12ga vs 223 we can start are own thread for that one;) .Any i wouldnt want to be shot by either, But in my personal opinion at a range from 10-20 feet a 12Ga shell will be more effective than a .223 meaning it will do more physical damage

here is how i came to that thought

we can stand 10 feet away from a tree and on this tree there are 2 identical branches we can say go and see who can destroy the branch fastest to disconnect it from the tree

12 ga will win every time

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My response

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Originally Posted by MarcS

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Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

i could argue it is easier to get on target with a shotgun than a rifle but i own a eotech which makes my ar very point and shoot i just put the big circle on a man sized target within in the house ranges very quick sight.

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Argument is pretty much null at home defense distances, regardless of sighting system.

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Now when talking learning curve i would have to think it is easier to learn to use a pump shotty over a AR there are less controls on a pump shotgun than a AR

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If you have taken a tactical shotgun and tactical rifle course, i'd like to know how you reached your conclusion. If you haven't, i feel it's almost neccecary in order to discuss the merits of that argument. I held your opinion as well until the first time I participated in a week of pistol, rifle and shotgun training that changed my outlook permanently. Frankly, i feel that until a person trains on and uses both under similar circumstances, the advantages and disadvantages of either platform aren't exceedingly obvious and can't be fully appreciated.

I'll list my reasons anyway, but know that i think it's pointless to argue them under most circumstances...though if anyone has a well thought out viewpoint coming from training an/or use of both platforms for defensive purposes, i'll gladly entertain it.

First, there are really no more controls on an AR15 than on a pump-action shotgun as it pertains to home defense. There's a safety and a charging handle/slide. The bolt release on an AR is superfluous in combat just like the slide release on the shotgun. It's something you'll never have to use for anything but administrative procedures. Note that i reload using the charging handle for the same reasons i use the overhand mathod to reload my pistol. I've never used the forward assist or found reason for it. The charging handle on an AR has to be operated once and then the gun is ready for action for the next 30 squeezes of the trigger. The slide on a shotgun has to be manipulated after every round and without sufficient practice, short stroking under stress is a common occurrance. This is why i state that the learning curve is higher. Non-diagnostic malfunction clearing on either weapon requires the same action, manual operation of the action.

Now, before you say that i forgot to include the magazine release as a control on the AR-15, consider the relative difficulty of reloading a shotgun, round by round, under stress, in the dark, compared to the relative ease of changing a magazine in an AR-15 under the same circumstances. I have watched people load shells backwards into their shotguns under these circumstances creating malfunctions that are, for all intents and purposes, unclearable. This is another reason i state the learning curve for the shotgun is higher. Secondly, considering that, In your PJ's, you're probably not carrying spare magazines or shells unless they are on your weapon, the point is almost moot, but another reason to opt for the greater capacity afforded by a rifle. Also considering that you are likely not carring a secondary weapon to transition to, The relative speed in which a detachable magazine fed rifle can be put back into service cannot be discounted.

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But in my personal opinion at a range from 10-20 feet a 12Ga shell will be more effective than a .223 meaning it will do more physical damage

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The mechanism of wounding is different, both are devastatingly effective at close range when using the proper ammunition.

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we can stand 10 feet away from a tree and on this tree there are 2 identical branches we can say go and see who can destroy the branch fastest to disconnect it from the tree

12 ga will win every time

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That's not really a good analog to a home defense situation at 10-20ft. It's a lot easier to break airborne sporting clays with a shotgun too, but that is also irrelevent. Fast, repeatable COM shots on multiple targets is the diagnosis for the situation we're looking at.

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I feel that this topic has no real answer! In my situation, I would prefer the 12ga simply because I live in close proximity to my neighbors. Our houses are less than 10 feet apart! If I were to start blasting with my AR15 in the middle of the night...rounds would surly perforate the BG and penetrate the wall possibly landing in my neighbors' houses! The 12ga would be just as effective but with less penetration of walls. It seems to me that the hit pattern of a 12ga would be more forgiving for a startled, nervous home owner that was waken from his/her sleep also. Just my $.02 cents...like I said...there really is no wrong answer!

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Originally Posted by RocketFoot

I feel that this topic has no real answer! In my situation, I would prefer the 12ga simply because I live in close proximity to my neighbors. Our houses are less than 10 feet apart! If I were to start blasting with my AR15 in the middle of the night...rounds would surly perforate the BG and penetrate the wall possibly landing in my neighbors' houses! The 12ga would be just as effective but with less penetration of walls. It seems to me that the hit pattern of a 12ga would be more forgiving for a startled, nervous home owner that was waken from his/her sleep also. Just my $.02 cents...like I said...there really is no wrong answer!

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I've heared this argument before, but it's simply not the case. Buckshot will penetrate interior walls with ease just as a 223 will, however, 223 actualy has less of an overpenetration chance in humans and you are only dealing with a single projectile. That being said, the energy of buckshot that has passed through an attacker probably isn't sufficient to penetrate much else. Basically, if it has enough energy to kill a human, it has enough to penetrate several layers of walls if you miss.

The pattern of a 12ga isn't that forgiving at home defense distances, it's about the size of your hand or smaller. Think 1" of speard per yard and i like using Hornady TAP which is an incredibly tight patterning load. However, if you are concerned with rounds making it into the neighbors house, why send a pattern downrange where the chance of some of the projectiles missing the target is greater?

Basically, this argument has been analyzed extensively by the law enforcement community and departments are switching to 223 partol rifles en-mass.

The only practical advantage the SG has over the AR15 is that its terminal performance doesn't rely on an impact velocity threshold. OTOH, TAP and MK262 Mod 1 possess terminal performance significantly exceeding that of M193.

The advantage of buckshot is multiple hits on one target, not multiple hits on multiple targets. IOW, shotguns aren't "street sweepers" in spite of any romanticism associated with its history in warfare. The exception being the "trench broom" moniker but that derives from the fact that troops in trenches were clustered together with little space to maneuver. Threats in your home may not afford you the same opportunity.

In reality they should be aimed just like any other long gun. This is confirmed by the fact that there has been an awful lot of effort over the years into making defensive shotguns pattern as tight as possible.

Why bother with buckshot? A full load of 2's, 4's or 5's is going to stop just about anything. Not too much problem with over penetration either.

Jeff

Here's a useful quote from Gabe Suarez, when asked the same question (SG or rifle):

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For general purposes, I'd definitely take a rifle.

The shotgun comes into its niche in "expected" very close range fights, in reduced light where the tempo of events does not favor traditional marksmanship principles, and where devastating damage needs to be inflicted in as short a time as possible with minimum number of shots. Added assets are the nature of the pattern and ammunition lends to hitting adversaries that might otherwise not be hit with a single projectlie, and the rapidly decreasing velocity tends to minimize collateral damage that may result from rifle fire.

Can you do these things with a rifle? Yes...but not as well as with a shotgun.

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...this sounds more to me like a SWAT-style dynamic entry than the more static home defense, but take it for what you will.

ETA: I also note that I was at the same shotgun class as MarcS, and I, too, was a little disappointed to discover that the shotgun was not especially easy to use reliably under stress.

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Originally Posted by TonyF

The only practical advantage the SG has over the AR15 is that its terminal performance doesn't rely on an impact velocity threshold. OTOH, TAP and MK262 Mod 1 possess terminal performance significantly exceeding that of M193.

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Even M193 out of a 16" barrel only looses significant performance well beyond the effective range of a shotgun. In the home, at 10-20' the point is moot and, as i said, both produce devastating terminal effects. I can see where you're coming from as far as an entry team that may use SBR's, but SBR's are not in common use as defensive long guns with civilians.

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Originally Posted by Pukindog

Why bother with buckshot? A full load of 2's, 4's or 5's is going to stop just about anything. Not too much problem with over penetration either.

Jeff

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That's not entirely correct. Anything smaller than #1 buckshot really doesn't meet minimum standards of penetration. #4 is marginal but i guess acceptable if you were living in a super thin walled apartment....though it will still pass through a couple walls. Anything that will sufficiently penetrate a human will penetrate a wall (several actually) if you miss. As for overpenetration, i don't consider it a major issue with most rounds as they don't carry much energy after passing through a human target.

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Originally Posted by dgg9

ETA: I also note that I was at the same shotgun class as MarcS, and I, too, was a little disappointed to discover that the shotgun was not especially easy to use reliably under stress.

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Not just that, but it was S L O W and generally unweildy. I transitioned my sidearm far more often than i did in the rifle class, an option that wouldn't be available if i were in my pajamas.

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Originally Posted by MarcS

Not just that, but it was S L O W and generally unweildy. I transitioned my sidearm far more often than i did in the rifle class, an option that wouldn't be available if i were in my pajamas.

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If you were well practiced in it, I can see the niche use, in pro-active "on offense" situations where you would indeed have sidearm and all other gear.

They are damned heavy, though. I short stroked a couple times in the class, and once fed in a backwards shell in a shooting string.

Realistically, though, for the home defender, it wouldn't be my first choice UNLESS you were willing to practice a bit, or unless you had really severe wall-penetration problems and opted for #4 shot or something like that (a compromise, to be sure)....or if money was such a dealbreaker that a $150 pump was all you could afford.

For me, though, living where all rifle ranges are not close and practice is limited, it's hard to find time to do justice to rifles AND shotguns in any meaningful way. In my tall and narrow city townhouse, with small rooms and a lot of stairs, my Glock would always be first choice in any scenario where I felt compelled to move around the house. As for a "last stand" situation, I would sit at the top of my staircase with the AR 15 and full mag and wait.

I think it depends on way too many things... The defender, the intruder, ammo, the particular design of gun, training/experience, surprise, location, etc..

I'll challenge anyone with a full automatic battle rifle/carbine to come up my steps as I stand at the top with my double barreled 12ga hammered coachgun.

Experience and/or training I think is the biggest factor as to which is better. Some people cant manually operate a pumpgun under stress. Where as some people can shoot from the hips or extended arms a 12ga SxS and hit what they intend every time.

Both, a self-loader and a shotgun are quite capable of doing the job - just that the defender should train or practice to acquire the skills to use either or both under such stressful conditions.

I personally would choose the shotgun for hallway to sub-25yrd duties.

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Originally Posted by dgg9

For me, though, living where all rifle ranges are not close and practice is limited, it's hard to find time to do justice to rifles AND shotguns in any meaningful way. In my tall and narrow city townhouse, with small rooms and a lot of stairs, my Glock would always be first choice in any scenario where I felt compelled to move around the house. As for a "last stand" situation, I would sit at the top of my staircase with the AR 15 and full mag and wait.

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Agreed.

My shotgun has really become a safe queen since that class. If i get a chance to get out with a long gun it's my AR every time. Why spend valuable time mastering a niche weapon when your general purpose weapon is pretty much just as good if not better for your situation?