Point & Shoot

[Ronnies111]

Sorry did not intend to post both, I'm old & sleepy been driving all day & night that's the best excuse I have
I just got back from the range doing Point & shoot drills for those who would be in your face allowing no truely aim time.I started from 3ft. to 15yds draw & shoot from the hip. I was using a 8in. steel plate. After about 2 hrs. of practice I was hitting about 8 out of every ten. I'll keep working. Someone sent me a video this morning stressing how important point & shoot drills are. He showed a video where you don't always have time to do a two hand steady, aim & fire. I use to practice alot with P/S but it's been a while but came back pretty quick. He was correct about adding this to your drills since I read in a magazine most gun fights happen to be from 3 ft. away.

[bogey1]

thats a good way to practice. when do you really have time to aim?

[Ronnies111]

thats a good way to practice. when do you really have time to aim?

That's a good one (when do we really have time to aim)
Maybe when we are sniping the neighbor, so we bang his wife...lol..JOKE NOW

[synergy]

Shooting from the hip is nothing worth using, IMO. If you need to make a contact shot, make it...if you need to fire from retention, do so. The key element is that the gun is still up in your field of view.

Shooting from the hip is a good way to miss, and wound/ kill an innocent.

My suggestion would be to not practice that stuff.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...your-training/

Most of the highly experienced officers in the study, in contrast, concentrated their visual focus on the target/suspect, catching only a fast glimpse of their sights in their peripheral vision and relying primarily on “an unconscious kinesthetic sense to know that their gun is up and positioned properly.”

“This should not be interpreted as sanctioning or promoting any training method in shooting, especially under life-threatening high stress, becomes problematic, and in this which the sights are ignored,” Lewinski emphasizes. “It's true that point shooting can be effective at short distances and probably is instinctively used by many officers in responding to close encounters. But at greater distances, the accuracy of just pointing and study officers were responding to a lethal threat that was 15-20 feet away.

“The rookies had successfully completed firearms training that emphasized traditional sight alignment, but they had no actual street experience. The elite officers began their careers with that same training. But at the time of the study, they were members of a specialized SWAT cadre with years of hard-core street experience. They train constantly and consistently win international competitions.

“Through innumerable repetitions they have developed a highly accurate feel--a strong kinesthetic sense--for raising their gun to a proper alignment without consciously thinking about it or making a pronounced visual or attentional shift to it. If you ran a laser beam from their eye to the target, it would shine right through their sights.

“Careful sight alignment was an important step in starting them toward that point of excellence. Experience and intensive training are ultimately what brought them there. Over a long time, they were able to transition from one emphasis to another. Yet even at their exceptional performance level, referencing the sights in some manner, however fleetingly or peripherally, was still part of their response in the type of rapidly unfolding encounter designed for this study.”

http://combatshootingandtactics.com/...g_thoughts.pdf

POINT SHOOTING OR SIGHTED FIRE, WHICH WORKS ALL THE TIME?
I usually get cornered a couple of times a year by a current or former student who
ask me at what distance I use my sights. I reply that I use them from 0-300 meters
or as far as the target is away. Routinely they relay a shooting situation that they
were involved in and talk about how many rounds were “lost” during the incident.
I won’t knock point shooting, but I will make a few points. First, I don’t believe you
can consistently replicate the stress you will be under in a gunfight on a flat range.
Your muscles will be different from the first shot to the last, before or after your
workout. I learned a long time ago that all good shooting requires is being
consistent and doing the same thing every time.
Next, if you practice point shooting and also practice using your sights, you’re using
two systems. Remember what I said about using one system that will do everything
or handle all situations? It applies here. I believe that point shooting requires less
mental discipline than does using your sights every time. So, when it comes to a
high stress situation, which system will your mind revert to, the easy way or the
disciplined way? Unfortunately, being human, I believe you will revert to the easy
method, which is point shooting. I don’t think your mind will say, it is under 10
yards, it is time to point shoot or it is over 10 yards and it is time to use my sights.
You will simply revert to one of two systems and generally that will be point
shooting.
Many of the tactical team shootings I have read in the last year show a 20% hit ratio
for tactical team engagements. This is poor at best. This means that we are losing
80% of our rounds downrange into the community or into other officers. Further, I
don’t know how someone can go into court and say, my position felt good, but I
don’t know why my rounds missed.
While working as a special ops instructor, we had a junk admin shelf with old
handouts and miscellaneous copies. Rummaging through the piles of paper, I found
what I consider to be the best set of shooting rules that apply to tactical shooting.
PLAXCO'S SHOOTING PRINCIPLES
1. ACCURACY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER SPEED.
2. SPEED IS ECONOMY OF MOTION.
3. SPEED WILL COME WITH PRACTICE (IF YOU PRACTICE TO BE
FAST).
4. LET THE SIGHTS DICTATE THE CADENCE OF FIRE.
5. YOU MUST LEARN WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE SIGHT PICTURE
AND TRIGGER CONTROL FOR THE SHOT REQUIRED.
6. SHOOT ONE SHOT AT A TIME.
7. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, ALIGN THE SIGHTS... SQUEEZE THE
TRIGGER.

While some shooters MAY be able to make shots at intermediate distances (3 yards to 10 yards) without needing to see their sights on the target...they still DO have a method of confirming where the rounds will go. You may see guys like Leatham making hits without using his sights....but he's been shooting a case of ammo a day for the past 25 years, USING his sights. Guys in that boat have enough repetition on the task to use physical reference points to steer the bullet to the target.

Watch from at least about the 1:40 mark, on.


The only reason they are able to do shit like that is BECAUSE they have been shooting upwards of 50k rounds/ year for over a decade. Keep in mind, they are missing sometimes, too.

Think of it this way. If you know the engine in your car well enough, you can manually shift gears without ever touching the clutch...just going off of sound. Should a novice/ intermediate driver attempt doing this? Probably not...you'll probably just grind away on your transmission. This is something you learn as you rack up miles behind the wheel. NOW, take someone who knows how to do that, and put them in a situation with a stress level that is 20x greater than anything they've ever experienced, behind the wheel...and do you still think they won't choke trying to shift by sound alone?

In the time it takes you to clear the holster, rotate the gun to the target, and fire from the hip HOPING for a hit...I can take an extra .1-.15 and get the pistol up to my line of sight, and KNOW that I can get a hit.

Try tracking your splits, and hit %, and accuracy from the hip on a timer....and compare it to what you get when you bring the pistol up to eye level and use some visual indications to decide when to shoot.

Keep in mind your accuracy will suck...so the odds of landing a fight stopping hit go through the floor...your splits will suck because you're now using 1 hand, and a bent arm to try to control recoil.... and your "feeling" of when you are on target or not will likely be totally different under the stress of a deadly encounter.

Point shooting sucks, dude....I'd recommend spending you ammo doing something more beneficial to your skills.

Anyone who still thinks its a good idea is welcome to post up the details of where they think it's applicably (IE: out to 7 yards) then we'll have a little "Pepsi Challenge" where you can do it your way, I'll do it my way...and we'll compare targets and times....if anyone is up for it. Then we can compare notes and see where we are.

[d90king]

Enjoy. I am also looking for a video that Larry Vickers teaches the proper method of point shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...&v=s3nGbN7RxpI

[synergy]

Enjoy. I am also looking for a video that Larry Vickers teaches the proper method of point shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...&v=s3nGbN7RxpI

Haha, I forgot Lamb made that video. He layed it out there pretty clear.

Where is Pincus's response?

[bogey1]

Shooting from the hip is nothing worth using, IMO. If you need to make a contact shot, make it...if you need to fire from retention, do so. The key element is that the gun is still up in your field of view.

Shooting from the hip is a good way to miss, and wound/ kill an innocent.

My suggestion would be to not practice that stuff.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...your-training/


http://combatshootingandtactics.com/...g_thoughts.pdf


While some shooters MAY be able to make shots at intermediate distances (3 yards to 10 yards) without needing to see their sights on the target...they still DO have a method of confirming where the rounds will go. You may see guys like Leatham making hits without using his sights....but he's been shooting a case of ammo a day for the past 25 years, USING his sights. Guys in that boat have enough repetition on the task to use physical reference points to steer the bullet to the target.

Watch from at least about the 1:40 mark, on.


The only reason they are able to do shit like that is BECAUSE they have been shooting upwards of 50k rounds/ year for over a decade. Keep in mind, they are missing sometimes, too.

Think of it this way. If you know the engine in your car well enough, you can manually shift gears without ever touching the clutch...just going off of sound. Should a novice/ intermediate driver attempt doing this? Probably not...you'll probably just grind away on your transmission. This is something you learn as you rack up miles behind the wheel. NOW, take someone who knows how to do that, and put them in a situation with a stress level that is 20x greater than anything they've ever experienced, behind the wheel...and do you still think they won't choke trying to shift by sound alone?

In the time it takes you to clear the holster, rotate the gun to the target, and fire from the hip HOPING for a hit...I can take an extra .1-.15 and get the pistol up to my line of sight, and KNOW that I can get a hit.

Try tracking your splits, and hit %, and accuracy from the hip on a timer....and compare it to what you get when you bring the pistol up to eye level and use some visual indications to decide when to shoot.

Keep in mind your accuracy will suck...so the odds of landing a fight stopping hit go through the floor...your splits will suck because you're now using 1 hand, and a bent arm to try to control recoil.... and your "feeling" of when you are on target or not will likely be totally different under the stress of a deadly encounter.

Point shooting sucks, dude....I'd recommend spending you ammo doing something more beneficial to your skills.

Anyone who still thinks its a good idea is welcome to post up the details of where they think it's applicably (IE: out to 7 yards) then we'll have a little "Pepsi Challenge" where you can do it your way, I'll do it my way...and we'll compare targets and times....if anyone is up for it. Then we can compare notes and see where we are.

who mentioned shooting from the hip?

[synergy]

I just got back from the range doing Point & shoot drills for those who would be in your face allowing no truely aim time.I started from 3ft. to 15yds draw & shoot from the hip.

thats a good way to practice. when do you really have time to aim?

who mentioned shooting from the hip?

The OP, then you told him it was a good idea.

[PA Traveler]

In a concealed carry course I completed this summer it was taught as a possible response to being attacked at arms length. It was drilled at anywhere from 3-6 feet and discussed as instinctive shooting, similar to throwing a ball.

If there's time even for a flash sight picture, I'd think that's the way to go.

[bogey1]

The OP, then you told him it was a good idea.

sorry synergy, i didnt remember him mentioning shooting from the hip, all my mind was on was point shooting. im not a combat kind of guy but, point shooting to me is, holding the gun just below the chin and shooting. (arms extended of course).