Cheney gets it

[PocketProtector]

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/20...ch_aei_terror/

CHENEY’S SPEECH — THE TOP 10 LINES

Former Vice President Dick Cheney spoke Thursday on national security at the American Enterprise Institute, a Washington, D.C. think tank. Here are the top ten lines in the speech, as compiled by the editors of FOX Nation:

No. 10: The administration has found that it’s easy to receive applause in Europe for closing Guantanamo. But it’s tricky to come up with an alternative that will serve the interests of justice and America’s national security.

No. 9: In the category of euphemism, the prizewinning entry would be a recent editorial in a familiar newspaper that referred to terrorists we’ve captured as, quote, “abducted.” Here we have ruthless enemies of this country, stopped in their tracks by brave operatives in the service of America, and a major editorial page makes them sound like they were kidnap victims, picked up at random on their way to the movies.

No. 8: If fine speech-making, appeals to reason, or pleas for compassion had the power to move them, the terrorists would long ago have abandoned the field. And when they see the American government caught up in arguments about interrogations, or whether foreign terrorists have constitutional rights, they don’t stand back in awe of our legal system and wonder whether they had misjudged us all along. Instead the terrorists see just what they were hoping for – our unity gone, our resolve shaken, our leaders distracted. In short, they see weakness and opportunity.

No. 7: Yet having reserved for himself the authority to order enhanced interrogation after an emergency, you would think that President Obama would be less disdainful of what his predecessor authorized after 9/11. It’s almost gone unnoticed that the president has retained the power to order the same methods in the same circumstances. When they talk about interrogations, he and his administration speak as if they have resolved some great moral dilemma in how to extract critical information from terrorists. Instead they have put the decision off, while assigning a presumption of moral superiority to any decision they make in the future.

No. 6: To completely rule out enhanced interrogation methods in the future is unwise in the extreme. It is recklessness cloaked in righteousness, and would make the American people less safe.

No. 5: This recruitment-tool theory has become something of a mantra lately, including from the President himself. And after a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do. It’s another version of that same old refrain from the Left, “We brought it on ourselves.” It is much closer to the truth that terrorists hate this country precisely because of the values we profess and seek to live by, not by some alleged failure to do so. Nor are terrorists or those who see them as victims exactly the best judges of America’s moral standards, one way or the other.

No. 4: Intelligence officers of the United States were not trying to rough up some terrorists simply to avenge the dead of 9/11. We know the difference in this country between justice and vengeance.

No. 3: To the very end of our administration, we kept al-Qaeda terrorists busy with other problems. We focused on getting their secrets, instead of sharing ours with them. And on our watch, they never hit this country again. After the most lethal and devastating terrorist attack ever, seven and a half years without a repeat is not a record to be rebuked and scorned, much less criminalized. It is a record to be continued until the danger has passed.

No. 2: In the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground, and half-measures keep you half exposed. You cannot keep just some nuclear-armed terrorists out of the United States, you must keep every nuclear-armed terrorist out of the United States. Triangulation is a political strategy, not a national security strategy.

No. 1: Critics of our policies are given to lecturing on the theme of being consistent with American values. But no moral value held dear by the American people obliges public servants to sacrifice innocent lives to spare a captured terrorist from unpleasant things. And when an entire population is targeted by a terror network, nothing is more consistent with American values than to stop them.

[Adam-12]

I wish Cheney would get it right in the chops. Everything he says is BS:

No. 10: ...it’s tricky to come up with an alternative that will serve the interests of justice and America’s national security.

Pure bullshit. Treat the ones actually captured on the battlefield like POWs, and the rest as alleged criminals. Dead simple.

No. 9: In the category of euphemism, the prizewinning entry would be a recent editorial in a familiar newspaper that referred to terrorists we’ve captured as, quote, “abducted.”

That's exactly what "rendition" is. Not all Gitmo prisoners were abducted, but most literally were.

No. 8: If fine speech-making, appeals to reason, or pleas for compassion had the power to move them, the terrorists would long ago have abandoned the field...

Statistically, it's absurd to pretend that more than 1 in 1,000 of the people killed in the Middle-East were in fact members of terrorist organizations. Al Qaeda consisted of a few hundred men at most. So Cheney is (as usual) begging the question of the existence of these terrorist hordes, and trying to scare Americans with imaginary hobgoblins.

No. 7: Yet having reserved for himself the authority to order enhanced interrogation after an emergency, you would think that President Obama would be less disdainful of what his predecessor authorized after 9/11...

FINALLY WE HAVE A WINNER! This one isn't BS. Obama is a clone of Bush. The BS part is Cheney imagining that this justifies anything.

No. 6: To completely rule out enhanced interrogation methods in the future is unwise in the extreme.

That's right, nothing should be ruled out. We'll do absolutely anything we deem necessary. If we deem it necessary, the "terrorist's" wife will be chained to a table and raped before his eyes by Cheney himself, because there's nothing that deserves to be taken off the table. NOTHING.

No. 5: This recruitment-tool theory has become something of a mantra lately, including from the President himself. And after a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do.

It doesn't justify anything to point out that this conduct provably increases sympathies and recruitment for "terrorists" of every description, ranging from Al Qaeda to anti-occupation insurgents.

And the whole question is a red herring. Torture is immoral even if it were effective and didn't make the problem worse. The fact that it isn't effective and does make the problem worse just compounds immorality with stupidity.

It’s another version of that same old refrain from the Left, “We brought it on ourselves.”

Again the BS assertion that anyone in the US considers 9/11 to be justified.

It is much closer to the truth that terrorists hate this country precisely because of the values we profess and seek to live by...

Like not resorting to brutal methods like torturing prisoners or handing them over to Egyptians for torture? Those lofty ideals?

No. 4: Intelligence officers of the United States were not trying to rough up some terrorists simply to avenge the dead of 9/11.

That's right. Intelligence officers told Bush that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and only gave him bogus evidence after he refused delivery on the truth and ordered them to furnish "proof" for the fore-ordained invasion.

No. 3: To the very end of our administration, we kept al-Qaeda terrorists busy with other problems... on our watch, they never hit this country again.

By the same bogus reasoning, Clinton's methods were effective after the first WTC bombing--there wasn't another successful terrorist attack on his watch. Post-hoc fallacy at its finest.

No. 2: In the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground, and half-measures keep you half exposed.

"No middle ground" meaning, "There's absolutely nothing we dare refuse to do." If that's really true, then Cheney is a pussy unless he authorizes soldiers to sodomize the prisoners, feed their children through wood chippers, rape their wives, chop off their fingers... oh, wait, why does that stuff sound so familiar? That's right--it's what we accused Saddam of doing, back when we said that nothing justifies such barbarity. So, Mr. Cheney, which is it? Is there "no middle ground," or are there indeed things that a moral human being would never do? Make up your mind and let us know...

You cannot keep just some nuclear-armed terrorists out of the United States, you must keep every nuclear-armed terrorist out of the United States.

Yeah, we should totally scrap that "three nuclear-armed terrorists a year" quota system we have today.

No. 1: Critics of our policies are given to lecturing on the theme of being consistent with American values. But no moral value held dear by the American people obliges public servants to sacrifice innocent lives to spare a captured terrorist from unpleasant things.

OK, then vice-president pussy, then why aren't we shredding their arms off to make 'em talk? Why the hell are we sacrificing innocent lives just because we're too weak in the stomach to do what needs doing?

[kht428]

I wish Cheney would get it right in the chops. Everything he says is BS:



Pure bullshit. Treat the ones actually captured on the battlefield like POWs, and the rest as alleged criminals. Dead simple.

What exactly would you like to do with them. Explain what it is that you feel should be done differently

That's exactly what "rendition" is. Not all Gitmo prisoners were abducted, but most literally were.

How do you figure that.

Statistically, it's absurd to pretend that more than 1 in 1,000 of the people killed in the Middle-East were in fact members of terrorist organizations. Al Qaeda consisted of a few hundred men at most. So Cheney is (as usual) begging the question of the existence of these terrorist hordes, and trying to scare Americans with imaginary hobgoblins.



FINALLY WE HAVE A WINNER! This one isn't BS. Obama is a clone of Bush. The BS part is Cheney imagining that this justifies anything.

It begs the question that if O is so put off by what was done why is he not taking it off the table for the future?

That's right, nothing should be ruled out. We'll do absolutely anything we deem necessary. If we deem it necessary, the "terrorist's" wife will be chained to a table and raped before his eyes by Cheney himself, because there's nothing that deserves to be taken off the table. NOTHING.

Please, what the hell are you talking about?

It doesn't justify anything to point out that this conduct provably increases sympathies and recruitment for "terrorists" of every description, ranging from Al Qaeda to anti-occupation insurgents.

Yeah, out of all the people that were taken into custody three were waterboarded. How many uniformed and non uniformed combatants surrendered or were captured total? They recruit based on our lack of religious morals that we were originally founded on. They recruit based on the fact that we get involved in situations we shouldn't. They recruit based on our banking system and international alliances. All of these things by the way were discussed and frowned upon by the founding fathers, sure wish we would have listened to them.

And the whole question is a red herring. Torture is immoral even if it were effective and didn't make the problem worse. The fact that it isn't effective and does make the problem worse just compounds immorality with stupidity.

How many people were tortured in Gitmo?

Again the BS assertion that anyone in the US considers 9/11 to be justified.

Actually there were plenty of people yelling that we brought it on ourselves that doesn't mean they thought it was justified. I feel we brought it on ourselves as well. Again had we listened to the founding fathers and their beliefs about foreign alliances alot of this may have been a moot point.

Like not resorting to brutal methods like torturing prisoners or handing them over to Egyptians for torture? Those lofty ideals?

Again how many were tortured? Who would you like us to release the prisoners too? Instead of spouting off your cheney hatred why not give us some good ideas?

That's right. Intelligence officers told Bush that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and only gave him bogus evidence after he refused delivery on the truth and ordered them to furnish "proof" for the fore-ordained invasion.

Uh huh. Now who's wearing the tin foil hat a little too tight

By the same bogus reasoning, Clinton's methods were effective after the first WTC bombing--there wasn't another successful terrorist attack on his watch. Post-hoc fallacy at its finest.

I just don't even know where to go with this one.

"No middle ground" meaning, "There's absolutely nothing we dare refuse to do." If that's really true, then Cheney is a pussy unless he authorizes soldiers to sodomize the prisoners, feed their children through wood chippers, rape their wives, chop off their fingers... oh, wait, why does that stuff sound so familiar? That's right--it's what we accused Saddam of doing, back when we said that nothing justifies such barbarity. So, Mr. Cheney, which is it? Is there "no middle ground," or are there indeed things that a moral human being would never do? Make up your mind and let us know...

Why do you keep bringing this back to sodomizing and raping? By legal standards we didn't torture anyone. Give it a rest. O keeps flip flopping on what should be done. Just look at what was said above about the use of EIT that he wants to hold in reserve for himself.

Yeah, we should totally scrap that "three nuclear-armed terrorists a year" quota system we have today.

OK, then vice-president pussy, then why aren't we shredding their arms off to make 'em talk? Why the hell are we sacrificing innocent lives just because we're too weak in the stomach to do what needs doing?

Talk about flip flopping. Does this mean that you approve and we can now take the kid gloves off and start torturing people. Yeah lets rip some fingernails off and poke out some eyeballs. Break a few bones and a little good old blood letting. Have a drink, take a pill, take a deep breath and calmly explain to us what you would have done to keep us safe and not hurt anyones feelings.

[Adam-12]

What exactly would you like to do with them. Explain what it is that you feel should be done differently

Not torture them.

That's exactly what "rendition" is. Not all Gitmo prisoners were abducted, but most literally were.

How do you figure that.

Um, because that's what rendition is. Someone snuck up on them, threw a bag over their heads, and hauled them to Gitmo. That's the textbook definition of kidnapping.

It begs the question that if O is so put off by what was done why is he not taking it off the table for the future?

He's not taking anything off the table. It's all political BS. Sooner or later we'll find out that they're still torturing there, or else we'll find out that he's simply shipping those people to foreign countries for torture so he can claim we didn't do it.

They recruit based on our lack of religious morals that we were originally founded on. They recruit based on the fact that we get involved in situations we shouldn't. They recruit based on our banking system and international alliances. All of these things by the way were discussed and frowned upon by the founding fathers, sure wish we would have listened to them.

With you all the way there.

How many people were tortured in Gitmo?

All of them. "Torture" includes much more than water-boarding.

Who would you like us to release the prisoners too? Instead of spouting off your cheney hatred why not give us some good ideas?

I already DID say what we should do. Treat the battlefield captures as POWs, and the rest as accused criminals.

Why do you keep bringing this back to sodomizing and raping?

Because we need to START sodomizing and raping. If we draw the line there, then we're endangering thousands of lives just to spare the terrorists an unpleasant experience. If Cheney doesn't advocate sawing off limbs, using swarms of angry bees, and getting really serious, then obviously he's lying when he says he'll do what it takes to save American lives. And if that bothers you, if you say that we should draw the line somewhere after all, that moral people DON'T do certain things, period, then stop the fucking torture.

It's really quite simple.

[Morel42]

The ability to Waterboard is nothing compared to the power of the dark side!!

(it was either something ranty or a quick one liner.. I went for the one liner...)

[thirtyonebravo]

By the same bogus reasoning, Clinton's methods were effective after the first WTC bombing--there wasn't another successful terrorist attack on his watch. Post-hoc fallacy at its finest.

uhh.. USS Cole? That's American "soil" and sovereignty.

[kht428]

stop the fucking torture.

It's really quite simple.

Reading your replies is torture. Please stop posting or I will contact the ACLU.

It seems to me that the people in Gitmo are not tortured (other than the three that were waterboarded).They are being held captive and seperate from other inmates and off of actual US soil. They are being fed, housed, clothed and treated better than I think they should be. And better than many inmates in our own judicial system. The people in Gitmo made choices based not in a military state but one of their own personal volition. They have noone to blame but themselves. I guess next time to avoid this whole situation we'll just have to go ahead and kill all of them. That way we won't need to take them as prisoners. Let the military do their job. I'll bet if we hadn't waterboarded them and there were more attacks you'd be bitching that we didn't do enough. Maybe we should treat them like they treat the prisoners they take. Oh wait you're probably one of those "this is an illegal war" people aren't you.

[kht428]

The biggest part that scares me out of all this is that I see O using this side show to hide his real plan. He gave his speech in front of a wall with the US constitution behind him. He kept mentioning the Constitution and applying it to the terrorists in order to get them trials. The constitution is for US citizens and should not be applied to terrorists. I foresee him using this as a spring board for his immigration agenda. If he can use the Constitution to defend non citizen terrorists than it can be extended to illegal aliens. I'm telling you, this is all smoke and mirrors. He's playing all of us.

[Rauswaffen]

Reading your replies is torture. Please stop posting or I will contact the ACLU.

It seems to me that the people in Gitmo are not tortured (other than the three that were waterboarded).They are being held captive and seperate from other inmates and off of actual US soil. They are being fed, housed, clothed and treated better than I think they should be. And better than many inmates in our own judicial system. The people in Gitmo made choices based not in a military state but one of their own personal volition. They have noone to blame but themselves. I guess next time to avoid this whole situation we'll just have to go ahead and kill all of them. That way we won't need to take them as prisoners. Let the military do their job. I'll bet if we hadn't waterboarded them and there were more attacks you'd be bitching that we didn't do enough. Maybe we should treat them like they treat the prisoners they take. Oh wait you're probably one of those "this is an illegal war" people aren't you.

Are you assuming that if we did not waterboard them, there would be more attacks and violence? Why the hell would I treat them like they treat their prisoners, I am not like them, are you?

And by your last line it seems you are OK fighting any un-declared war.

[PocketProtector]

Wow...speechless about some of these replies.
They are our enemies, you defeat enemies you don't take them to dinner and a motel.
If ya think water boarding is torture you've been listening way to much to Pelosites. And who could listen to that?
They cut off innocent peoples heads, we hear about it a couple days and all is forgotten. We water board which is nothing more than a mind game and we are the bad guys.
Yeah yeah Bush planned 9/11. Yikes !!