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  #111 (permalink)  
Old June 9th, 2013, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

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Originally Posted by John A Brown View Post
"This is not stuff that I created. This is stuff that was taught to me. It is stuff that others have learned over time works. And I am here to share that info with you if you want to learn it."

Randy is para-phrasing what I said, but it's close enough to get the point across.

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Hell, I'm glad I remembered your name. I suck at remembering names. But I knew it was "something" like that that you told us. My point was made.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

I wanted to stop by because a few people notified me of this thread and that I'd been mentioned. For those of you who've said positive things, thanks much I appreciate it.

I want to address the following statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoRich View Post
I'd be willing to bet that a HUGE majority of civilians that have successfully defended themselves, via firearm, had no formal training.
I agree with the above. So what's the point of formal firearms training then?

Formal firearms training can give you two things which are an advantage over the untrained gun owner:

confidence

options

You have a better grip on your strengths, your weaknesses, and what you KNOW you're capable of. Proper broad-based training should also help you understand the dynamics of interpersonal interactions with unknown contacts. This can give you the edge in avoiding dangerous situations instead of dealing with them as they "suddenly" materialize. You should also have a better understanding of federal and state law as pertains to both carrying a weapon and use-of-force.

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  #113 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoRich View Post
People don't need ANY training to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I'd be willing to bet that a HUGE majority of civilians that have successfully defended themselves, via firearm, had no formal training.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Cunningham View Post
I agree with the above. So what's the point of formal firearms training then?

Formal firearms training can give you two things which are an advantage over the untrained gun owner:

confidence

options
It's this but there's also a hidden fact in EvoRich's statement which is that good results can reinforce poor tactics. The homeowner by example of this general statement could have done everything wrong and still prevailed. And that is a dangerous precedent.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

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Originally Posted by TonyF View Post
Either point out in any of my replies to this thread where it could even be remotely suggested that I was pimping a FIRE Institute course or publicly take back what you wrote.
tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread.

as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

You regard the practice of training people reckless ? Or are you saying that ony people with 20 years of self-tought mindset are the ony ones qualified for professional training? Speaking from experience, realistic training prepared me well for actual combat and refined and prepared my mindset.. And being that this is a thread discussing training (that civilians would recieve from schools like FIRE), tony is perfectly qualified to engage in this discussion and I appreciate his input.

I would argue Fine (and gross) motor skills are equally important as they play supporting roles. Understanding the application of force doesn't do much good without the ability
To apply it.

Last edited by Spectre6; June 10th, 2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

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Originally Posted by Spectre6 View Post
Speaking from experience, realistic training prepared me well for actual combat and refined and prepared my mindset...
you are now in possession of a schema that you are prepared for actual combat. in reality, you are not. this makes you more dangerous to yourself, and those innocents around you. case in point.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

I was prepared for the actual combat I participated in.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

Quote:
Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread. Absurd! Much like telling GunLawyer not to respond to legal questions because of his signature. These guys respond on their own time.

as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
No one can disagree with what you stated here except for the 'bulldozer analogy crap'. Instructors expect their students to practice and train to the limits they, the students were instructed. MIndset can be talk about, but can only be owned by the individual.

You have yet to make a good argument. Maybe you should venture a class.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

Quote:
Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread.

as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
You can ask ANY student I have ever trained - civilian, law enforcement, military, contractor or anyone else - and they will tell you that I constantly say that there is only so much that can be accomplished in a 1 day or 2 day course. Or a 5 day or 30 day course for that matter.

Also, in every single class that I teach I give students drills that they can take with them and do at home, for free, to make themselves a better weapon handler. Two examples are pistol draws and reloads. One of the best investments any shooter can make is to spend $10 on some dummy rounds and practice reloads. This can be done in a garage or basement, and it costs nothing after an initial investment of a few dollars.

One of the things I say at the start of every class I teach is "Nobody is going to leave here at the end of the class and be ready to join SEAL Team 6."

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  #120 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2013, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

Quote:
Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
So, where did you start to learn any of what you claim to know?

If training is worthless, where did any resemblance of skill come from in your case?
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