Verdict on piston ARs: Yea or Nay??

[Kb! Bob]

I'm pretty close to buying my first AR. Being an avid AK'er, I like he idea of the piston to aid in reliability. Rifle would be plinking/HD/SHTF type all-purpose zombie killer. So, have the bugs been worked out of the system yet? Worth buying? Any drawbacks? Thanks!

[Asmodeus6]

You're going to get a can of worms flurry of responses on this one.

In my experience; my low end DPMS AR15 runs just fine on the same ammo my AK eats for thousands of rounds without choking. Just clean it and / or keep it wet and it will run.

(Standard DI AR-15)

The main advantage I see is that they run cooler than DI AR 15's. Which is a benefit. And they are probably easier to clean. But they are also more expensive, AND use less standard parts. Making parts commonality a slight factor as the kits change, or are no longer produced over time.

[IronButt]

You're going to get a can of worms flurry of responses on this one.

In my experience; my low end DPMS AR15 runs just fine on the same ammo my AK eats for thousands of rounds without choking. Just clean it and / or keep it wet and it will run.

(Standard DI AR-15)

The main advantage I see is that they run cooler than DI AR 15's. Which is a benefit. And they are probably easier to clean. But they are also more expensive, AND use less standard parts. Making parts commonality a slight factor as the kits change, or are no longer produced over time.

That pretty much sums up it up right there. I think piston guns are actually a better system. If the mfgrs could standardize the piston/BCG's so they could be interchanged from one model to the next, that would seal the deal for me. Until then, I'll stick with what I have.

[wellcraft]

how much are you looking to spend on your AR? piston guns are generally a several hundred dollars more than DI guns. i believe STAG or CMMG have a piston AR that is very reasonably priced and well below the competition. there are also drop in conversion kits to make your DI gun a piston gun. in my opinion the only tangible benefit of a piston gun over DI is the piston gun is easier to clean. if you don't mind spending upwards of 1500 for a piston AR and money isn't an object go for the piston gun. if you want a good AR and don't mind spending a few extra minutes to clean it plus save a few hunderd than go with a DI AR. in my opinion a piston AR is not a significant improvement over DI to justify the additional cost which in some cases is 500-700 bucks.

[str8shooter]

I have a bushmaster gas piston AR, and it's been a dream to shoot, and not a nightmare to clean. I bought the upper and lower from different dealers, and at the time, the GP upper (16", removeable carry handle and flash hider) was $300 more than the DI. I think the difference is about $450 now.

My one and only purpose for going with the piston system was the clean up time. Before I had my very own EBR to play with, I'd go shooting with some guys that had both, and the guys with the DIs had to do a little more disassembling and a lot more cleaning at the end of a weekend.

I don't have the experience or skills to say one shoots better than the other, and I think tearing it down and cleaning it up is part of the fun of the whole AR experience, but I simply don't have time to do a thorough job like my buds with the DI systems did each and everytime they'd go shooting, where as the guys with GP systems didn't spend nearly as much time or elbow grease to get theres nice and shiney again.

[LittleRedToyota]

I like he idea of the piston to aid in reliability.

so far, it seems from people who run ARs hard and see them run hard (i.e., the training industry), that piston ARs are actually still *less* reliable than DI guns.

DI ARs are actually very, very reliable when set up correctly, kept well lubed, and cleaned once in awhile.

don't worry too much about the "my M16 jammed in 'nam" hype.

[weaver]

I think it depends on the piston AR you get. There are some where the piston itself is self contained in the gas block. That takes the cleaning from the upper reciever to the gas block. then there are systems that are self cleaning. Check out Adam Arms and LWRC. Basically the same system design. Reliability for piston I think depends on the system type you go with and what its made out of. I do think piston is the way to go. I can't compain about my adams arm piston.

[kunsunoke]

Gas ARs should be fine for reliability if you buy/build a decent one (the names to know here are Colt, Stag Arms, Daniel Defense, Knight Industries, Smith & Wesson, maybe a few others) with a chrome-lined barrel/chamber/BCG and you keep the BCG soaking wet with a decent-quality synthetic lubricant (EWR 2000 seems to be the benchmark).

If it were me doing the buying I'd go with a full-length gas system (or as close to full length as possible) vs. the carbine-length one, as doing so reduces the internal stresses on the gas rifle. This also gets the rifle closer to Eugene Stoner's original design (versus the US Army's butchered clusterfuckery).

Usual caveats for any gun apply here as well. Don't use crap ammo, don't run 5.56 in guns only spec'ed to run .223, don't use crap magazines. And if something feels "wrong" to you at the range, it probably is (we have another thread on that issue in this section of the forum).

What has to be remembered here is that this is rocket-science (AR) vs. cro-magnon harware (AK). The rifle requires some knowledge and skill on the part of the operator in order to avoid problems. The reward is a lightweight, ergonomic rifle that tack drives at 100 yards or under, without beating the crap out of its operator in the process.

As for gas piston rifles - the two I'd consider immediately would be LWRC or POF. Both can take a ridiculous amount of abuse and fire reliably and accurately. The Sig 556 should be okay as long as you buy it new and check the serials before you buy (some have a problem with erosion of the chamber). Keep the warranty information handy, though.

[HK45T]

This mite sound funny but I have had them all, LWRC,POF,NOVESKE, MP-15, COLT, RRA, Ruger. To tell you the truth the most reliable AR I had that never gave me problems was a Stag 2T which is just DI not piston. I also have Robsion XCR that has never given me a problem. If it was me I would go with the XCR great weapon AK reliable one bolt to change out the barrel, and you can also change calibers for a few hundred dollars. You really cant bet them. Hope this helps

[The_War_Wagon]

As a POF-415 owner, I'm saying - as a FIRST rifle? NO. Get used to the caliber and the breed, before branching off into the exotic.

As simply "something different" for a nominally experienced AR owner? Sure - if you can afford a QUALITY model (and there are many out there to choose from, in ADDITION to the POF - Sig, LWRC, H&K, et.al.), as NOTHING leaves a WORSE taste in the mouth, than a poor quality anything - firearms especially.

Piston rifles are NOT the proverbial 'Star Trek phaser on setting 16.' The chamber runs cooler & cleaner... and that's about it, as far as improvements over DI rifles. They're nose-heavy and heavier overall. The hold-off when you're sighting them in is anywhere from a 1/2" to 1 1/2" HIGHER than a DI rifle, and if you're switching back and forth between rifles, THAT will play with your head (and marksmanship!). The recoil impulse is quite different than a DI rifle. Not unmangeable, mind you - it's still just a .223 round - but different enough to NOTICE for most people. Buffer tube erosion is STILL a reality for most folks - custom buffers and buffer tubes exist, but that's EXTRA expense to keep in mind, on top of your ORIGINAL purchse (I JUST put a PWS anti-tilt buffer TUBE on my POF, which was an additional $250 expense).

Where the piston design REALLY shines, is in full auto, and in SBR applications. Since most of us will NEVER lay down enough lead to melt a gas tube , to say nothing of getting our tax stamp, the full auto factor is moot point for semi-auto shooters. Since the gas system of a DI rifle gets trickier the shorter the barrel gets (especially if you throw a supressor on top of THAT), THEN the piston design makes EXCELLENT sense!

Again, tax stamp issues are prohibitive for most, so that brings us back to the original point - why DO you want a piston rifle? I own one, for the best reason of all: because I CAN! If you're buying one for any OTHER reason... you're really fooling yourself.

All that said... it's time to show off.






And with the addition of a 2nd DI rifle in my house, the configuration of this one just changed again. I'll take some pics of it and post those eventually.