Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Federal Champion brass = Fail

    These were shot out of my Sig P225 today. Factory new ammo. Please tell me what the heck is going on w/ these. Nothing unusual w/ feeding, functioning, etc., but I did notice these cracks in empties while picking up after myself:




    There were likely several others, out of exactly 100 rds. of Fed. Champion, and zero instances of this w/ neither the Blazer Brass 115 FMJ (100 rds.), Federal HST 124 +P (9 rds.), nor Federal 9BPLE +P+ (8 rds.) I also fired today... Only the Federal Champion... And I never noticed this ammo doing this previously, regardless of the gun I fired it from...

    I saved the boxes in case I need to email Federal the lot number...

    Thanks in advance for any info...

    Regards,

    Bones

    ETA - I don't think it's due to a sloppy chamber, as the warm +P and hot +P+ empties had no signs of stress on the brass...
    Last edited by JoeyBones; May 30th, 2010 at 10:38 PM. Reason: add my suspicion of chamber not being the cause

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Joe:

    I've seen similar wall breaches for cases that were loaded too many times but NEVER would expect it from new brass. It does appear that the case wall had a thinned imperfection that allowed for hot gas to penetrate the case and run up between the brass and chamber wall. It acts like a cutting torch or jet effect melting the brass as it travels. This could also be caused by an overly large chamber with the brass being stretched beyond it limit but, as this is the first experience you had with the splits, I would tend to think that as only a remote possibility.

    I would definitely be in contact with Federal. I'm sure they want to look into the cause and have the casings shipped to them. I would save one or two (just in case something gets 'lost' in the mail) and send the rest.

    Obviously If you have more loaded cartridges from the same lot I'd quarantine them.

    ETA: For ammunition questions contact Federal Premium Product Services at 1-800-831-0850.
    Last edited by tl_3237; May 30th, 2010 at 11:04 PM.
    IANAL

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    Joe:

    I've seen similar wall breaches for cases that were loaded too many times but NEVER would expect it from new brass. It does appear that the case wall had a thinned imperfection that allowed for hot gas to penetrate the case and run up between the brass and chamber wall. It acts like a cutting torch or jet effect melting the brass as it travels. This could also be caused by an overly large chamber with the brass being stretched beyond it limit but, as this is the first experience you had with the splits, I would tend to think that as only a remote possibility.

    I would definitely be in contact with Federal. I'm sure they want to look into the cause and have the casings shipped to them. I would save one or two (just in case something gets 'lost' in the mail) and send the rest.

    Obviously If you have more loaded cartridges from the same lot I'd quarantine them.

    ETA: For ammunition questions contact Federal Premium Product Services at 1-800-831-0850.
    Thanks so much for the prompt reply... I will contact Federal. I have about a case of this same lot number sitting in my stash!

    Next question - Any reason to fear damage to my chamber? I just got done cleaning the pistol, and all seemed to check out OK in a cursory visual inspection, but gases hot enough to cut brass (It does indeed look like a cut - The exterior of the casing is quite smooth) would seem to be bad mojo for my barrels over the long haul, no?

    Thanks again... Rep inbound.

    Regards,

    Bones

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Bones, I'd take a very very careful look at the inside and outside of the chamber , looking for signs of a longitudinal crack in the chamber. It has beern known to happpen. Cracked chamber makes TOUGH extraction, usually.

    Other evidence would be to look at the point of the rim where the extractor claw catches the rim of the case. Difficult extraction when the cses crack may show something there.

    Though I mostly think 3237 is on the right track with "defective brass", but just to be on the safeside, check your chamber and barrel carefully.

    Flash
    "The life unexamined is not worth living." ....... Socrates

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Bones, I'd take a very very careful look at the inside and outside of the chamber , looking for signs of a longitudinal crack in the chamber. It has beern known to happpen. Cracked chamber makes TOUGH extraction, usually.

    Other evidence would be to look at the point of the rim where the extractor claw catches the rim of the case. Difficult extraction when the cses crack may show something there.

    Though I mostly think 3237 is on the right track with "defective brass", but just to be on the safeside, check your chamber and barrel carefully.

    Flash
    Thanks, Flash...

    I did examine the brass where the extractor grabbed it, and nothing out of the ordinary showed up... No heavy extractor dings, etc... I will check the chamber more carefully next chance I get, and definitely before carrying/shooting the 225 again... The extraction/ejection distance seemed to be normal at the range, but I will be one pissed hombre if my 225's barrel is FUBAR after less then 400rds (100 of which was apparently out of spec. Federal)

    Grrrr....

    I have an email into Federal and will call on Tuesday.

    Thanks again guys.

    Regards,

    Bones

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    I'd have to guess bad brass also, BUT, check the orientation of the crack to the ejector mark, if it is always at the same relative location then I'd be looking very closely at the chamber.

    I have some old China-sport brass that cracks like that. I lose about 2 out of 50 with every loading. I lost about the same when it was new. When you look at that brass you can visually see it's not a very consistant alloy.
    But I guess that's to be expected with really cheap brass, not "premium" stuff.
    NEVER TRUST A PRIVATE WITH A LOADED WEAPON OR AN OFFICER WITH A MAP

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    I checked the brass cracks against the location of the extraction and ejection marks, and there doesn't seem to be any real correlation... I also looked the chamber and barrel over very closely last night before bed, and it looks fine... No cracks.

    There is some very minor discoloration inside the chamber at about 9:00 position, but just normal stuff (dark brass-colored, "cloudy" mark) - I get far worse marks in my chrome-lined P7 barrels, where any and all discolorations become more exaggerated, even after thorough cleaning...

    I think the gun is OK, but now I have a shitload of Federal that I won't use, and I'm not sure I will ever buy it again either (WWB is only a few bucks more per 100, always has nice clean-looking brass and bullets, and none of my pistols are picky in the least).

    Thanks all for the advice/etc. I will update the thread once I talk to Federal. I feel like this lot must be defective, and I won't sell it or shoot it, so I feel like Federal should do something... Or at least correct the matter on the manufacturing side...

    Regards,

    Bones
    Last edited by JoeyBones; May 31st, 2010 at 09:30 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Federal as far as I am concerned has the crappiest brass around. I don't know if Federal brass is thinner, or if it is a "softer" brass alloy. But it just doesn't hold up like many other brands.

    I use all FC brass strictly for plinking and light loads. Lot of problems resizing this stuff for various calibers, .30 carbine is the worst, the slight taper of the case and trying to full length resize gives you a bulge near the head usually on 1 out of 3 cases.

    If your pistol checks out, I would bet on it being a brass problem myself.
    "Disperse you Rebels! Damn you! Throw down your Arms and Disperse!" British Major Pitcairn at Lexington April 19, 1775

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Definitely get in touch with Fed'l. My guess is that they forgot to anneal a batch. They should be happy to get that ammo back and should happily replace it with good ammo.

    I haven't had significant problems with Fed'l brass so I wouldn't avoid it based on this one instance, however, if they don't make it right please let us know. Anyone can make a mistake a decent company makes it right.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Federal Champion brass = Fail

    Hey Bones, could you share post/PM the lot # of this ammo?

    I have over a case of Fed.Champion 115gr 9mm in my stock too, I have only used a 100 rds of it and haven't noticed any issues... but I have not tried to reload it yet so I really haven't looked for problem cases yet.
    Keep us posted on the outcome with Federal please.
    Thanks

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