Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Question Civil rights question

    I've learned a good deal about our 4th and 5th amendment rights lately (mostly from here -thanks!).

    It got me to thinking of scenarios in my head. I'll play this simple situation out and perhaps someone could tell me what we can/should do.

    Say you're pulled over as a result from being profiled. (Maybe there was a shooting in the area earlier and the officer didn't like the look of your car, or maybe you have a mullet or you're the wrong, uh, color.) The officer comes to your window, asks for ID, license, reg, then says he pulled you over because you missed a stop sign. (BS reason maybe, but you can't argue it.) You're completely cooperative, polite, and comply with his request to show your documentation. Then, he/she asks you to step out of the car.

    Now, is that tantamount to a search, which you can refuse consent for? Or do you have to comply with that, regardless of him/her giving a false reason, or no reason at all? What can/should you say? What actions would you take?

    Thanks!
    Looking to start homebrewing? Read my primers here and here

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    the courts have ruled that the police can order you out of the car at a traffic stop (because it is an "officer safety" issue).

    a good idea is to keep an extra key in your wallet. if ordered out of the car, make sure all the windows are up (ahead of time) and lock the doors. that will make it harder for the officer to get away with searching your car.

    one out of the car, he can also pat you down to check for weapons (as per terry v. ohio).
    F*S=k

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Thanks, littlered.

    So essentially, there's no way I could legally refuse to get out of the car if this were to happen?
    Looking to start homebrewing? Read my primers here and here

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    You can't legally refuse to get out of the car. But, like LRT said, LOCK THE DOORS on your way out and refuse consent to a search.

    It won't stop a determined cop from searching your car, but you will have made your point.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Mentioning that you do not consent to a search is important, though, right? If that's caught on tape, and the judge determines that the officer did not have RAS to perform a search, you may be acquitted for subsequent crimes?

    Further, if after stating that you do not consent, and the officer says "unlock the doors, I'm searching anyway" you have to comply? Can should you ask about being detained, or being free to go, or is it moot at that point?

    Thanks again guys.
    Looking to start homebrewing? Read my primers here and here

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Quote Originally Posted by GLK_19 View Post
    Mentioning that you do not consent to a search is important, though, right?
    yes, though personally, i would not state that just upon being asked to get out of the car. i would only state that if he asked to search the car or started searching it.

    Further, if after stating that you do not consent, and the officer says "unlock the doors, I'm searching anyway" you have to comply?
    i would not. i would force him to break into the car. then there is physical evidence that you did not consent to the search...which gives you a bit better ground to stand on that your saying "i told him i did not consent" and the officer responding "He did consent, he's just lying now."

    Can should you ask about being detained, or being free to go, or is it moot at that point?
    imho, it is never a bad time to ask that question.
    F*S=k

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Here is some MINIMAL research for you. I suggest you watch all three - it'll take about an hour of your time.








  8. #8
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Quote Originally Posted by ehidle View Post
    Here is some MINIMAL research for you. I suggest you watch all three - it'll take about an hour of your time.

    [vids]
    Thanks, ehidle. I have seen those, but I will watch them again. It will be nice to have a refresher.

    And, thanks again, LittleRed. Much appreciated.
    Looking to start homebrewing? Read my primers here and here

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
    . . . i would force him to break into the car. then there is physical evidence that you did not consent to the search...which gives you a bit better ground to stand on that your saying "i told him i did not consent" and the officer responding "He did consent, he's just lying now."

    . . .
    Excellent advice, sorta.

    Cops lie, we know that. Not all cops, but the ones that cause you trouble will lie. Making sure that they create physical proof of their deeds is about the only thing you can do, unless you record them, in which case they might confiscate the recorder and erase it. But they can't un-break a window.

    The downside is that it's actually going to be awkward to roll the window up, get out, and lock the car. First thing the cop does after the stop is to ask you to roll your window down, and if you open the door instead, expect to see whether his holster has a snap or not. So after he orders you out of the vehicle, your rolling the window up will be a red flag. Ditto for locking the door.

    You have to obey all lawful orders, but I'd expect most courts to frown on an order to open your door for an unlawful search. I may be wrong, though. And lying officers can also lie about smelling marijuana, hearing muffled cries from your trunk, etc.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Civil rights question

    GL makes very good points, kinda reinforcing what I was getting at before. Nothing is going to stop a determined cop from breaking the law, trampling on your civil rights, or whatever else he needs to do to make himself feel like he is in the position of authori-TAY.

    Your ability to assert your rights in the face of a JBT is completely dependent upon the size of your bank account (eta: and number of surviving witnesses).
    Last edited by ehidle; April 27th, 2010 at 01:48 PM.

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