"The registry"

[kcr121]

This relates to firearms ownership in general, but comes up often in OC/CC encounters.

A thread posted today about a PAFOA member's negative encounter with law enforcement today got me thinking. In the description of events, the poster of that thread mentioned that the law enforcement officer(s) that he dealt with specifically referred to a "registry" or database of firearms, and the conspicuous absence of the firearm in question from that registry.

Here's what I'm getting at: we're pretty certain it exists, contrary to the laws of Pennsylvania...

§ 6111.4. Registration of firearms.

Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

(June 13, 1995, 1st Sp.Sess., P.L.1024, No.17, eff. 120 days)

1995 Amendment. Act 17, 1st Sp.Sess., added section 6111.4.

Cross References. Section 6111.4 is referred to in section 6111 of this title.

What, if anything, can we do about it?

[NotThatOne]

Here's what I'm getting at: we're pretty certain it exists, contrary to the laws of Pennsylvania...

It does exist and it is spelled out in Title 37, Chapter 33.

I suggest reading section 33.103 on confidentiality:

Disclosure upon request of county sheriff or a criminal justice agency, defined as any court, including the minor judiciary, with criminal jurisdiction or any other governmental agency, or subunit thereof, created by statute or by the State or Federal constitutions, specifically authorized to perform as its principal function the administration of criminal justice, and which allocates a substantial portion of its annual budget to this function. Criminal justice agencies include: organized State and municipal police departments, local detention facilities, county, regional and State correctional facilities, probation agencies, district or prosecuting attorneys, parole boards, pardon boards and agencies or subunits thereof, as are declared by the Attorney General to be criminal justice agencies as determined by a review of applicable statutes and the State and Federal Constitutions, or both.

If nothing is stored by the State, then how could they possibly be releasing information provided on the forms described in Chapter 33? Clearly, this information is stored and the nature of the information makes it a "firearm registry"....unfortunately, it is so loosely applied that the State isn't creating a "firearm registry" they are simply recording the sale of firearms.

Also look at section 33.111 outlining what PSP form you will fill out and exactly how is must be filled out

Note in 33.111 paragraph (F), the PICS approval number...if the approval number is issued and recorded on the form, wouldn't the PSP have to store that in order to have a reference when the paperwork is submitted?

What, if anything, can we do about it?

clean house in HBG and elect a government "for the people" not "to control the people"

[kcr121]

What, if anything, can we do about it?

clean house in HBG and elect a government "for the people" not "to control the people"

That's the obvious answer, with the least effective and slowest results. I was thinking more of a challenge to the legality of such a database in court. What would be required?

ETA: I'm going to read up on your references. Thanks for the info.

[son of the revolution]

Your looking at a steep hill to climb, since the PA Supreme Court has already looked at this and ruled that since the database doesnt contain a list of every gun in the State, they refused to rule it was in fact a registry. Found themselves a nice little loophole to wriggle through on that one that gave them some measure of political cover from both sides,even though it was obviously a bullshit, cowardly, sidestep move on the part of the Court.

[edstephan]

Allegheny County Sportsmen's League
http://www.acslpa.org/

Scroll down on the left hand side is a section on court cases. Read about the registry case. There is alot of info on preemption here as well.

There are 2 people in Pennsylvania that can put a stop to the State Police using the Firearms Sales database as a registry and do you know who they are? One is the Governor Fast Eddie (you know he want's to expand it) and the other is the Attorney General!!! What do both have in common?? Tom (I want to be the Governor) Corbett!! Guess what practice has not been stopped?? And Corbett wants us to promote him to governor with the promise he'll put an end to it. I don't think so.


An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

[twoeggsup]

...Tom (I want to be the Governor) Corbett!!...

You know something Ed...

I'm begining to think you don't like Tom Corbett.

[edstephan]

You know something Ed...
I'm begining to think you don't like Tom Corbett.

I've talked to Tom several times about Reciprocity, Preemption and the PSP and have been told the same thing. Wait and see. 2yrs ago in 2008 (he was running for another term as AG) at the at the Allegheny Sportsman League Banquet (Dan, Doug, Rich, and Greg you were there) Corbett was asked about reciprocity with Ohio and we were told to wait. We are still waiting. The only time his office has done anything for gun owners is right before an election cycle. Last time it was reciprocity with WV. I would like him just fine if he would just do the job he was hired by us to do. Now he wants a promotion to Governor and he can’t / won’t do his current job. I say send him back to the private sector and get someone in there that can do the job!!!

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

[jcabin]

I was watching an open question and answer forum with several of the republican candidates running for various levels of office the other night.

I was fast tired by Corbett giving, "wait and see", "hands are tied", "the law can only do so much" answers. Clearly Sam Rohrers expounding on every question Corbett failed to answer frustrated Corbett. If the guy can't even answer basic questions, why would I want him as my governor?

[HyDef]

Allegheny County Sportsmen's League
http://www.acslpa.org/

Scroll down on the left hand side is a section on court cases. Read about the registry case. There is alot of info on preemption here as well.

There are 2 people in Pennsylvania that can put a stop to the State Police using the Firearms Sales database as a registry and do you know who they are? One is the Governor Fast Eddie (you know he want's to expand it) and the other is the Attorney General!!! What do both have in common?? Tom (I want to be the Governor) Corbett!! Guess what practice has not been stopped?? And Corbett wants us to promote him to governor with the promise he'll put an end to it. I don't think so.


An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

Wouldn't anyone who was directly affected by the police referencing this illegal database have standing to take action against the databases existence? My first thought turns to the gentleman in the OCB incedent whose weapon was taken and given to his wife because it wasn't "registered in his name".

I open carry, and the gun that I carry was bought for me by my wife. If I'm not with her and I'm confronted, and my weapon seized because it isn't "registered to me", you can be sure I will be in the court system challenging this "registration". I see no reason why I wouldn't have standing.

[edstephan]

Wouldn't anyone who was directly affected by the police referencing this illegal database have standing to take action against the databases existence? My first thought turns to the gentleman in the OCB incedent whose weapon was taken and given to his wife because it wasn't "registered in his name".

I open carry, and the gun that I carry was bought for me by my wife. If I'm not with her and I'm confronted, and my weapon seized because it isn't "registered to me", you can be sure I will be in the court system challenging this "registration". I see no reason why I wouldn't have standing.

That should give you standing provided you could show harm.
The folks at OCB may be able to us that as a secondary case.
But what do I know I'm just a dumb ol'e farmer

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan