Traffic Stop incident, and Gun Registration

**avizpls** · October 9th, 2006, 02:16 PM

Howdy. It’s a shame it took the following story to finally get me to sign up here!

So here we are, driving to the local watering hole yesterday, Sunday October 8, 2006, when, after allegedly running a stop sign, we are pulled over.

Been here before.

She took the ID of the driver, myself, and the back-seat passenger and asked if any of us were wanted. When she came back, she informed the driver that his driving privileges had been revoked, and then proceeded with the questions. Where are you going, where are you coming from, where do you two (me and the back-seat passenger) live, ARE THERE ANY WEAPONS IN THE CAR.

Crap. Never been here before.

The driver and I both have our CCW and were both armed. The driver informed the officer of that. She went thru the routine of getting all hands in the air, instructing the driver on how to exit the vehicle and position himself to be disarmed. He got back in, and it was my turn. I was disarmed (fun note: I was using SmartCarry-look it up) at the rear of the car, and told to stand there for a minute.

During this time, the officer checked the registration on both weapons. Of course they were clean.

After being told to, I got back in the car, and we all sat for twenty minutes with our hand on our heads. Other officers arrived; the sheriff came and insinuatingly asked "why are you guys running around with all these weapons?" The driver responded exactly as I would have. "Protection" "protection from WHAT?" "Protection" He left, and the car was searched. The found four hypodermic needles, two of which we were aware of, and told the officer. (The car belonged to the driver’s diabetic mother) They thought they were drugs, called his mommy (haha) and after clearing that up, the weapons were put into out trunk unloaded, and we were told to go "a block down the road and do what you gotta do"

Funniest thing is she let the driver drive away w/ no license.

My problem wit he event is this.

Originally Posted by § 6111.4. Registration of firearms.

Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

Now, does this seem to be in direct contradiction to what happened at the stop? I called the PD involved, and they explained that there IS a registry and they access it all the time.

I repeat

any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry

They said they have no control over the law (?!?!) and that I’m talking to the wrong person. So I decide to pursue the issue with the PSP. In browsing their site, I find this little Gem.

Link to article stating the following

"As suggested by the Commonwealth, the purpose [of the database] is to enable the State Police to maintain a record of sales for law enforcement purposes in the event handguns are utilized in the commission of crimes," Kelley wrote. "Such purpose is consistent with long history of the Commonwealth’s maintenance of a handgun sales database."

The purpose of the database also is consistent with a section of the Uniform Firearms Act that requires State Police to make "all reasonable efforts to determine the lawful owner" of any firearm confiscated by State Police and return the firearm to its lawful owner, the opinion stated.

So this has been brought to the courts before to no avail. Anybody can plainly see that the language of the law EXPRESSLY prohibits a registration. Is there nothing we can do? As I told the local PD, I don’t have as much of a problem with a registration as I do with law enforcement agencies acting outside of the law.

**danp** · October 9th, 2006, 02:25 PM

That's pretty much the same question we've all been asking for years. I believe there may have been a court case about it and it was upheld but I can't say for sure.

**LorDiego01** · October 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM

I wasnt aware that they could demand the ID/License of passengers in the vehicle. But I guess when firearms are invovled, the game changes.

ALSO, I dont know at what point this is true, but if they ask you to exit the vehicle, you must raise up your windows and lock the car, as far as I know, if you dont do this, then you are consenting to a search.

Why did they search the vehicle? Did they have probable cause? Does the fact that you have a LTCF automatically gives them consent to search your vehicle?
Or was it due that the driver's license wasnt up to par?

Was your vehicle damaged in any way?

Why were your weapons disarmed and put in the trunk??

Doesnt your LTCF means that you've been given permission by the masters to carry your weapons on your person? (remember kids, its not a right if you have to ask for permission to do it!)

**LorDiego01** · October 9th, 2006, 02:42 PM

Oh! And welcome to the site!!

**Steve in PA** · October 9th, 2006, 03:32 PM

What does the traffic stop have to do with 6111.4?

If the story as told is correct, there was no basis for a search of the vehicle unless; 1) the officer saw the needles (PC), or 2) the driver gave consent.

**avizpls** · October 9th, 2006, 04:19 PM

I wasnt aware that they could demand the ID/License of passengers in the vehicle. But I guess when firearms are invovled, the game changes.

This was before guns came about, and she didnt demand, she asked and we gave them over.

ALSO, I dont know at what point this is true, but if they ask you to exit the vehicle, you must raise up your windows and lock the car, as far as I know, if you dont do this, then you are consenting to a search.

I'm asuming you mean to do this AND exit the vehicle, right? If so, not a bad plan if you dont want searched.

What does the traffic stop have to do with 6111.4?

If the story as told is correct, there was no basis for a search of the vehicle unless; 1) the officer saw the needles (PC), or 2) the driver gave consent.

It has to do with 6111.4 because the officer operated a registry of firearm ownership within the commonwealth of PA despite 6111.4's language.

The driver did give permission to search, and he informed her of the needles when she asked if there were any weapons or drugs.

**LorDiego01** · October 9th, 2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by avizpls

I'm asuming you mean to do this AND exit the vehicle, right? If so, not a bad plan if you dont want searched.

YES.
Roll up Windows.
Exit Vehicle.
Lock Doors.
Activate Alarm.
Kiss Concrete.
Lick Boots.

You'll be out by the morning.

**avizpls** · October 9th, 2006, 04:59 PM

DanP,

by the way, I think the court case you're tlakin about is the one I linked to.

**The Drew** · October 9th, 2006, 06:15 PM

Even though they said they were checking the "registration" of the weapons, what they were really doing is checking if they had been reported stolen or something to that effect. There is no registration in PA, and I doubt that they have realtime access to the sales database. That said, the only way they could come up "clean" is if the sales database matches your DL.

**jdlv4_0** · October 9th, 2006, 08:39 PM

First off what are you doing in a car being driven by a guy with no driving privs, going to a "watering hole"? Not to insinusate that I'm psychic and know who has a drivers liscense and who doesn't but if your friend as a track record like one of my friends has, I check to see if he can still drive before I get into a car with him. As far as the database is concearned, the paper work you fill out at the shop has to go somewhere doesn't it? Personally I'd rather have the riot act ran on me every now and then, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that the police are out doing thier job, even if a few legitamate CCWers are held up every now and then so be it, sooner or later they will get a car load of guys going to the bar with drugs and guns, that's what they do. Think of yourself as a good training exercise.