Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    In researching information about the Olympic pistol->rifle->pistol thread (http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/95...ml#post1160989) I came across a very interesting letter from the ATF posted here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=227314





    It would appear that the ATF has allowed an odd exception to the prohibition of rifle to pistol conversion under very specific circumstances.

    My early thoughts are:
    -- The letter pertains specifically to the single-shot Contender ONLY. I would think that BATFE would at least try to regulate differently for EBRs.
    -- Unanswered, and therefore potentially risky, under this letter is what happens when you upgrade or replace one element of the kit?
    -- I also question how the single source aspect of the kit should make any difference under the law whatsoever, but since when do ATF regulation, law, and logic mesh.
    -- You could be instantly guilty of a felony if you reassemble it in the wrong order or forget a part at home.

    IANAL and my suggestion is DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, KIDS.

    What do you think?
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Great stuff........

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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Thoughts after a couple hours of sleep:

    I would not even consider this without a letter addressed to myself, notarized copies stored off-site in case BATFE comes knocking with their bulldozer.


    A quick reading would appear to allow the conversion in the answer to question 3 which specifically addresses making the conversion. However, after rereading the answer with a little distance, I notice that it never specifically speaks to any change from rifle to pistol (or the reverse). Instead it merely says:
    [snip] the components of the kit may be assembled and subsequently reassembled an unlimited number of times as a rifle or a pistol [snip]
    (bold mine). So I can put it together and take it apart as many times as I want as a pistol OR I can put it together and take it apart as many times as I want as a rifle. Maybe the use of "or" vs. "and" is just style and not intended to exclude both actions, but rather reflect the one or the other at any given time nature, maybe it is intentional. Unfortunately, we have more ambiguity
    Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
    "--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100

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    Default Re: Is Olympic Arms ignorantly prompting customers to commit federal felonies?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    OK, looks like a real ad, even with the improper use of the word "build" ("built" is also a word.).

    I have to say, it doesn't look like a lot of thought went into this ad or the legal claims therein. We'd need something solid, something binding in all Federal Circuits, that expressly defines when you've remade or redesigned your pistol into a rifle, within the meaning of the NFA, such that you may no longer turn that "rifle" back into a pistol.

    To me, it's pretty clear that paper "registration" plays no part in the statutory definition. It's a rifle if it has a buttstock, it's an SBR if it has that buttstock and a short barrel, or if it's made from a rifle and is under the 16"/26" specified dimensions. A rifle "registered" as a pistol, either via paid excise tax or through state records, is still a rifle if the definition applies. The statute also clearly contemplates that a gun may change status regardless of how it started its life:

    The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
    What do you make of this? http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/957...le-pistol.html
    Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Interestingly, this thread resurfaced today: http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/534...r-package.html
    Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
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    Default Re: Is Olympic Arms ignorantly prompting customers to commit federal felonies?

    Quote Originally Posted by -JD- View Post
    Ambiguous. I wouldn't want a felony trial, or even a contraband forfeiture, to hang on that as a defense (particularly since such letters are inadmissible for trial.)
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Quote Originally Posted by -JD- View Post
    Interestingly, this thread resurfaced today: http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/534...r-package.html
    It did? The last post is from November 5th, 2009.

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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Quote Originally Posted by MTechnik View Post
    It did? The last post is from November 5th, 2009.
    Hmmmm, I think it was a Rotz-up, IIRC it was in "General" yesterday and someone had asked about buying part of the package. My guess is a mod caught it, deleted the new post, PM'ed the new poster, and move the thread.

    Obviously, they are out to get me.
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    Default Re: Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

    Quote Originally Posted by -JD- View Post
    My guess is a mod caught it, deleted the new post, PM'ed the new poster, and move the thread.
    Not sure if anyone was PM'd, but I can see that the new post was deleted and the thread was moved to the Classified Archive because of it's age.
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

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    Default Re: Is Olympic Arms ignorantly prompting customers to commit federal felonies?

    Please Note: The poster was issued an infraction for this post.

    thanks for the letter, JD. in the answer to question 3 we see that if the gun was shipped from the vendor as a multipurpose kit that it can go back and forth at will, but that if it started life as a pistol without the rifle accessories it changes nature at the first conversion.

    this is of interest to amateur gunsmiths like myself who build unique designs. a unique design featuring both capabilities would be acceptable under this principle if the maker documents the existence of all parts in the kit at time of creation. makes me rethink some works in progress involving unique semi subgun types. would be nice to have a letter in specific for such, but this letter attached to any submission would demonstrate precedent.

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