Interesting ATF Letter - Legal Kits for Pistol->Rifle->Pistol...?

[Wiley-X]

I still hold that it's silly.

It's like the silly "once a machine gun" rule. Maybe the NRA and GOA should get involved and get the rules changed to be concerned with the current configuration. It is absurd that you may make a pistol out of rifle receiver that's never been made into a rifle but if you take an identical receiver from a completed rifle and make a pistol, that's against the law.

Just plain silly.

[YosemiteSam]

This statement From Thompson/Center Arms Co. was posted on this site.

For info Purpose only. I have no opinion and I think Gun Lawyer posted they are wrong.


http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

The following was hand entered verbatum from the policy statement sent to me by US Mail from Tim Pancurak at Thompson Center Arms Co.:

Notice Concerning Encore/Contender Pistols and Carbines


Thompson/Center Arms Co. went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court to establish the lawfulness of the Contender pistol and Carbine (including the carbine kit), and won. The Supreme Court opinion also establishes the legality of the Encore system, which has similar interchangeable parts.

With these systems, a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrrel (minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto the reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. Within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will.

In 1988, Thompson/Center filed suit against the United States alleging that the pistol and carbine kit used above do not constitute a rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, a weapon made from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches, or a restricted "firearm" as otherwise defined in the National Firearms Act. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Thompson/Center. Their opinions are cited as United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992), affirming 924 F.2d 1041 (Fed. Cir. 1991).

In the trial court and in the Federal Circuit, the United States argued both that (1) the mere unassembled parts constituted a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches in length, and that (2) use of the receiver to assemble a pistol after a rifle had been assembled constituted making a weapon from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches. The Federal Circuit rejected both arguments. See 924 F.2d at 1043, citing 26 U.S.C. 5845 (a) (3) and (4). The United States abandoned the latter argument in the Supreme Court, which held generally for Thompson/Center. Accordingly, both issues (1) and (2) were decided in favor of Thompson/Center and are not now open to question.

Thus, the sale, possession, and use of the Contender or Encore pistol and carbine as described are fully in accord with federal law. The use of these products in all of the States is likewise lawful, except that certain restrictions may apply in California.

[-JD-]

The lack of differentiation on barrel length was what I took issue with (in my mod capacity).Not true (by my interpretation) if you ever throw a rifle configuration with a barrel less than 16" into the mix.

Crossover, I edited to address this but I'll included it here.

The no rifle-stock & <16" bbl. is clearly and explicitly stated, in specific context, in the letter that he was commenting on already.

Belt & suspenders day, huh?

Alright, time for a beer ...

[GunLawyer001]

Just to clarify: The ATF newsletter is sent to all FFL's, and provides a defense but doesn't supersede the law. If the newsletter told everyone to stop doing NICS on sales of handguns to people aged 30-35, they would be unable to take punitive action against FFL's who obeyed, but there'd be a mess to clean up when they realized the error, and FFL's would have to obey the statutes.

Public rulings from ATF are also admissible in court by the public, as a defense to criminal charges. But if you relied on then to create contraband, you can't keep the contraband.

On the other hand, if John Armstrafficker receives a letter from ATF telling him that he may install a new drop-in auto sear in his AR-15 as long as he only uses his new machinegun on Wednesdays, and he's arrested and prosecuted, HE can use that letter in his own defense. But his buddy who saw the letter and did the same, may not, and neither can the 10 million people on the Internet who saw his posted copy.

Neither public opinions nor private letters supersede the statutes or binding court opinions. For the statutory prohibition on creating a pistol from a rifle to be negated, we'd need either Congressional action signed by the President, or we'd need a USSC opinion binding nationwide.

[-JD-]

I still hold that it's silly.

It's like the silly "once a machine gun" rule. Maybe the NRA and GOA should get involved and get the rules changed to be concerned with the current configuration. It is absurd that you may make a pistol out of rifle receiver that's never been made into a rifle but if you take an identical receiver from a completed rifle and make a pistol, that's against the law.

Just plain silly.

But a "virgin" receiver is neither a "rifle" nor a "pistol" - yet. It is a receiver.

Actually, IMHO MOST laws are silly and poorly executed.

[Wiley-X]

On the other hand, if John Armstrafficker receives a letter from ATF . . .

So if I get a letter from ATF telling me that I can convert my 1911 into a rifle and then back to a rifle, I am still subject to arrest and beatings but I may present that letter in my defense but they'll get to keep my gun even if I'm found not guilty.

[GunLawyer001]

So if I get a letter from ATF telling me that I can convert my 1911 into a rifle and then back to a rifle, I am still subject to arrest and beatings but I may present that letter in my defense but they'll get to keep my gun even if I'm found not guilty.

I believe that ATF is limited to one unannounced beating per year. But they may stomp any number of kittens.

[Wiley-X]

LOL! Maybe I shouldn't laugh, I don't like cats but stomping kittens isn't funny even though ATF has been known to do that.

[justashooter]

argument over this issue is absurd.
put your panties back on and live your lives.
this board is bedlam.

[GunLawyer001]

argument over this issue is absurd.
put your panties back on and live your lives.
this board is bedlam.

Actually, my life is about keeping people out of jail by giving them good, solid legal advice. To the extent that you can stay out of my way, I thank you.