Township Park Carry

[Offrampmotel]

I like to go hiking with my kids in a township-owned park. At the entrance, they have a "no firearms" sign. Being that the property is owned by the township, is it considered public property? If so, am I correct in my assumption that the township cannot enforce the no firearms policy?

[Curmudgeon]

I like to go hiking with my kids in a township-owned park. At the entrance, they have a "no firearms" sign. Being that the property is owned by the township, is it considered public property? If so, am I correct in my assumption that the township cannot enforce the no firearms policy?

*Emphasis mine*

The townships rules are a violation of state law regarding preemption. Until the township understands this, it would be reasonable to assume they would attempt to enforce it. They likely believe they do have the authority.

Why go that route? Instead just start a dialog with them. So far, folks have enjoyed great success with this.

Good luck, let us know if how you make out, and you can also let us know if you need pointers. Many here have already done this.

[Offrampmotel]

I'll try writing them a letter and see what kind of response I get. I'll post the results here. Thanks!

[Curmudgeon]

I'll try writing them a letter and see what kind of response I get. I'll post the results here. Thanks!

There you go! Chances are, someone will want to run it by the solicitor, etc., this can eat up a little time, weeks maybe. It sometimes is just a case of the township not being aware of the UFA restrictions. Many folks actually see a fair amount of cooperation in the matter, hopefully yours will go as smoothly.

Good luck.

[Offrampmotel]

Kind of interesting how ignorance of the law isn't an excuse for me, but it is for the government.

[Curmudgeon]

Kind of interesting how ignorance of the law isn't an excuse for me, but it is for the government.

^Don't get me started...


Here is the preemption law, it may help you in your letter...

PA Uniform Firearms Act
http://acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm
TITLE 18
PA CRIMES CODES


§6120. Limitation on the Regulation of Firearms and Ammunition.

(a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.

(a. l) No right of action.

(1) No political subdivision may bring or maintain an action at law or in equity against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement, injunctive relief or any other relief or remedy resulting from or relating to either the lawful design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition or the lawful marketing or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public.

(2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a political subdivision from bringing or maintaining an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision.

(b) Definitions.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Dealer." The term shall include any person engaged in the business of selling at wholesale or retail a firearm or ammunition.

"Firearms." This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 (relating to sale and use of air rifles).

"Political subdivision." The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

(Chgd. by 1.1999, Act 59(7), eff.12/15/99.)

[Exbiker]

I like to go hiking with my kids in a township-owned park. At the entrance, they have a "no firearms" sign. Being that the property is owned by the township, is it considered public property? If so, am I correct in my assumption that the township cannot enforce the no firearms policy?

They do not have the right to limit legal possession or carry just the discharge of firearms. So you are correct.

[Evan]

Kind of interesting how ignorance of the law isn't an excuse for me, but it is for the government.

This always seems to be the case, unfortunately.

[Offrampmotel]

Here's the letter I'm getting ready to send off. I stole most of it from here:

I am a resident of Washington Township. However, I frequently take my children to play at Asbury Park, and hike the impressive amount of trails located there. However, I wanted to bring to the attention of the Board of Supervisors a rule that appears to be in violation of state law. I became aware of this rule today when visiting Asbury Park with my children. I noticed signs posted all over the park prohibiting firearms, among other things. The sign was very clear that “violators will be prosecuted.”

It is my understanding that the firearms prohibition portion of this rule is in violation of Title 18, Chapter 61, subchapter A (otherwise known as The Uniform Firearms Act) specifically subsection 6120 which states: "General rule: No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.”

The preemption statute I quoted was passed in 1995. I am unsure when this rule was passed, and understand that it may have been in place before 1995, explaining why it may have been overlooked. However, there was no grandfathering of existing limitations, so in any event, the rule as it stands today is improper.

I know some people might want to know why someone would want to carry a firearm at Asbury Park, and the answer may be as simple as they carry a firearm daily. I know I do. But that question is not really the issue. The preemption statute I quoted is very important for Pennsylvanians that legally carry a firearm in that it removes the problem of a traveling citizen of running afoul of a myriad of local laws prohibiting where you can and can not carry a firearm. In other words, licensed or otherwise legal carriers of firearms in Pennsylvania can carry everyplace not prohibited by state law.

Of particular interest to the township is that since this rule is unenforceable, there could be negative consequences should an unknowing person, or even one choosing to ignore the rule knowing it is null and void happen to be cited or otherwise confronted. If a police officer were to “enforce” such rule or ordinance, wrongful arrest and abuse of office charges could be laid on the officer, the police department and the township – not an inexpensive proposition.

I respectfully ask that the Board of Supervisors please look into this matter. I thank you a your time and look forward to hearing back from you.

[tommy610]

They do not have the right to limit legal possession or carry just the discharge of firearms. So you are correct.

Funny thing about this is, the only reason one (well, most anyone) would carry into the park is for SD. So, if a guy jumps out from behind a picnic table and starts beating you with a tire iron and you shoot him, they'll cite you for discharging a firearm?