Overcharged for LTCF? It's time to act (Updates Page 23)

[son of the revolution]

These issues are never as easy as they seem at first glance.

The Legislature can pass anything it wants. If its enactments are not possible, then of what use are they? In this case the Legislature made an assumption of what the cost to process and issue the LTCF would be. They presumed that every county operates under the same economic conditions and cost centers.

I have heard these questions brought up to the county Sheriff, and listened to his reply. Here in Bucks County it simply costs more for the operation of the staff to process the applications. It may cost less in another county. But this Sheriff has to operate within the budget provided to him by the County Commissioners. There is no slack in the budget, so his options are limited. If there are limited funds for applications to be processed then only a finite number of LTCF could be issued. His choice is to collect the needed funds so that his staff can process all those applications that are submitted to the office, Otherwise, the staff does not have the funds to approve them.

So the tough decision can be defined as: limited the amount of LTCF per year subject to the funds available, or provide as many as can be processed using user fees to defer the costs.

I agree with the position of the Bucks County Sheriff. It's better for the applicant to pay for one's processing fees than to be faced with a long waiting period to obtain the LTCF. There are no free services provided by gov't, there's no free lunch. My Sheriff has put his butt on the line so that more of us can be issued a LTCF. It's a very pro 2nd amendment stance.

The problem should be addressed by the Legislature. The Sheriff of this county is doing the best job he can under the situation.

The real underlying question should be why a LTCF is needed in the first place, but that's not the topic of this thread.

While I understand your point, the fact of the matter is that it DOESNT MATTER what the different "operating costs " are on a County by County basis. The law is the law , PERIOD. If there is a difference amongst the various Counties about processing costs then that should compel the respective Sheriffs to contact the Legislature and request or demand a modification to the law to address that. What they DONT get to do is violate the law because they feel they have a valid justification for doing so.

Your logic ( or the logic you expressed if you prefer) is NO different then the arguments all the Town Commissioners use to try to justify their illegal enactment of L&S Ordinances. Enactment of them is expressly forbidden by State LAW, yet the locals feel they are free to ignore the law because they've decided they have " special circumstances " that justify their behavior. And thats decidedly NOT the way things are supposed to be. What good is the rule of law if various elected officials feel they're entitled to violate it at will ? And what kind of example is set by people that are supposed to be leaders of their communities when they behave as if the rules dont apply to them when its convienient ?

[biggs88]

Technically they are. They will issue a LTCF for $25 dollars...it's just not a fancy one. Like I said, it's voluntary to pay the $42 for the nice one. Do I agree with it? No. Will it be hard to fight? Probably.
~ Derek

The law is the law. Voluntary or not.
They CANNOT charge over $25.

They could offer a solid 24Kgold card engraved with your name and photo for an extra fee. If it is being sold as a LTCF, they can't charge more than $25 for it.

[P7hk9]

These issues are never as easy as they seem at first glance.

The Legislature can pass anything it wants. If its enactments are not possible, then of what use are they? In this case the Legislature made an assumption of what the cost to process and issue the LTCF would be. They presumed that every county operates under the same economic conditions and cost centers.

I have heard these questions brought up to the county Sheriff, and listened to his reply. Here in Bucks County it simply costs more for the operation of the staff to process the applications. It may cost less in another county. But this Sheriff has to operate within the budget provided to him by the County Commissioners. There is no slack in the budget, so his options are limited. If there are limited funds for applications to be processed then only a finite number of LTCF could be issued. His choice is to collect the needed funds so that his staff can process all those applications that are submitted to the office, Otherwise, the staff does not have the funds to approve them.

So the tough decision can be defined as: limited the amount of LTCF per year subject to the funds available, or provide as many as can be processed using user fees to defer the costs.

I agree with the position of the Bucks County Sheriff. It's better for the applicant to pay for one's processing fees than to be faced with a long waiting period to obtain the LTCF. There are no free services provided by gov't, there's no free lunch. My Sheriff has put his butt on the line so that more of us can be issued a LTCF. It's a very pro 2nd amendment stance.

The problem should be addressed by the Legislature. The Sheriff of this county is doing the best job he can under the situation.

The real underlying question should be why a LTCF is needed in the first place, but that's not the topic of this thread.

The state manages to sell thousands of driver's licenses, hunting licenses, and fishing licenses every year without the costs varying from county to county, why should an LCTF be any different?

Try selling a hunting license for $22 over cost and see what happens.

[thundrr1]

Chose your battles wisely, there are other hills to be won.

The additional fees are a molehill. I spend more that that in cigarettes in a week and the LTCF is for five years. At $4.00 per year additional charges, it just doesn't seem worth the effort. There are way too many counties to mount an effective offense against. To carry any weight, you must have a "vested" interest in the County,,,, as in living there and paying taxes.

Sending letters to your County Sheriff, objecting to the fees, might just put you in his cross hairs.

Yes,,, the law is the law,,,,,, but..... consider the consequences of your actions.

[ViperGTS19801]

Whether or not the license is the crappy piece of paper or the nice shiney driver's license-sized one DOES NOT MATTER if the shiney one is defined by written law as a License to Carry Firearms.

Can someone please find me the exact definition of what a "License to Carry Firearms" actually is? It sounds like a silly question but I remember seeing somewhere the written definition - I could be wrong, but I believe it spelled out the dimensions, media it's printed on, whether or not it has the licensee's picture on it, etc.

If someone can find that for me (I scanned through the 6109 article and didn't find it), I am going to take that and a full copy of 6109 to the sheriff's office when I take my girlfriend to get her LTCF, and use it to try and get the shiney card license for $25, instead of the $40-something I paid for mine. I will also make sure to have my VR on me so I can come back with an audio recording of the entire conversation.

I'm young and stubborn, and god damnit, I have a SERIOUS problem with having my money stolen and having someone commit a crime against me just because they know they'll get away with it since I am ignorant of the law. I didn't know how the pricing broke down when I got my LTCF and I didn't know I was essentially being stolen from - but now I do, and I don't plan on letting my girlfriend get taken advantage of quite so easily.

Call me brave or call me stupid. The money isn't what I take issue with - it's the principle of the matter.

[knight0334]

The law is the law. Voluntary or not.
They CANNOT charge over $25.

They could offer a solid 24Kgold card engraved with your name and photo for an extra fee. If it is being sold as a LTCF, they can't charge more than $25 for it.

The paper ones are presently your actual license to carry firearms. They are the one that the PSP has designed, officially endorsed, and produce for issuance(your sheriff gets them from the PSP in triplicate). The plastics ones are NOT your LTCF, but rather an optional representation of your license. If your county chooses to issue the plastic ones as an upgrade at a additional cost it is not foul of the law so long as they still have the official paper license at $25. Now if the county only offers the plastic card, it can in no means charge more than $25 for it.

[IronSight]

The plastics ones are NOT your LTCF, but rather an optional representation of your license.

I want what your smoking.


Bucks county website, and I quote;

Fee for a license to carry is $46.00.

http://www.buckscounty.org/governmen...onsPermit.aspx

[knight0334]

I want what your smoking.


Bucks county website, and I quote;



http://www.buckscounty.org/governmen...onsPermit.aspx

Camel Wides Lights..

I realize some of the counties are charging more than the statutory rate, but what I said IS true. Even from that site above, the upgrade is $21 for the plastic card. Their paper, which is the actual license, is still $25.

Sheriff's get the paper licenses from the state police, those are the actual license. They are in triplicate; original goes to the bearer(unless you opt for plastic), a copy goes to the PSP, and the 3rd is retained by the sheriff.

[IronSight]

Camel Wides Lights..

touché (10 Char)

[kx90]

Camel Wides Lights..

I realize some of the counties are charging more than the statutory rate, but what I said IS true. Even from that site above, the upgrade is $21 for the plastic card. Their paper, which is the actual license, is still $25.

Sheriff's get the paper licenses from the state police, those are the actual license. They are in triplicate; original goes to the bearer(unless you opt for plastic), a copy goes to the PSP, and the 3rd is retained by the sheriff.

What is this "opt" bullshit you speak of?

The last time I was in for my renewal (Dec. 2007) over here in Levittown, Bucks County I paid the $46 fee because that is what the clerk told me it costs. When I said 5 years ago it was only $19 why the increase she said they actually take a picture now and issue a laminated DL-like card instead of copying the DL photo and pasting that on the flimsy paper LCTF.

And honestly I have no problems whatsoever paying $42 for a nice LTCF card for 5 years. That equates to seventy cents per month or two cents a day for 5 years (including one day extra for a leap year ).

Now sure if they were still only offering the flimsy see-through paper LTCFs then it better be no more than $20. Or if they keep raising the cost each year because they feel like it then that is messed up.