Stolen AR found at Ridge and Valley

**glockmaster** · March 21st, 2010, 01:05 AM

Hey I was shooting at Ridge and Valley in Coopersburg and someone came by, I don't know what his status is at the club because he did not identify himself, and informed me and the other people on the pistol range that "just to let you know there was an AR found up on the rifle range that someone had just left there and the police were called and it turns out it had been reported stolen."

He then said that police may be stopping by and "asking to see people's guns."

??????????????? Wouldn't this be illegal? They just couldn't ask to see anything without a warrant or some suspicion of a crime, right?

I also told him there is no "registry" in PA and that if I wouldn't be letting any police look at anything of mine and left it at that.

**cigarmanpa** · March 21st, 2010, 01:08 AM

they can ask anything they want, you can tell them no or look at them blankly. I'd say no and go on about my way

**glockmaster** · March 21st, 2010, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by cigarmanpa

they can ask anything they want, you can tell them no or look at them blankly. I'd say no and go on about my way

Right, thats what i meant. Thanks

**GunLawyer001** · March 21st, 2010, 01:46 AM

That would be a search, and perhaps a seizure, without a warrant or permissible exception. You can say "no" to anyone who asks or demands to examine your firearms.

Police think otherwise. Police believe that they can disarm anyone, then once they have possession, they are free to record the serial number and run it through the various legal or quasi-legal databases. Police are wrong.

There's case law, I recall an appellate case where police were in a house (without a warrant, but lawfully standing where they were standing), and without asking permission from the resident, they pulled some stereo equipment out far enough that they could record the make & serial numbers. Then they ran the numbers, found that some were stolen, and they arrested the occupant.

The court found that this was not within the "plain view" exception, since the serial numbers were not visible without some affirmative act by the cops. The same would apply to guns in your hands at the range (or in your car, or on the street). Cops can't just approach everyone at the range and conduct a a bunch of serial Terry "stop & frisks", then record the serial numbers.

Cops can ask whatever they want. They should be taught that "no" will be a common response.

**JCWohlschlag** · March 21st, 2010, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

There's case law, I recall an appellate case where police were in a house (without a warrant, but lawfully standing where they were standing), and without asking permission from the resident, they pulled some stereo equipment out far enough that they could record the make & serial numbers. Then they ran the numbers, found that some were stolen, and they arrested the occupant.

The court found that this was not within the "plain view" exception, since the serial numbers were not visible without some affirmative act by the cops.

Arizona v. Hicks?

**GunLawyer001** · March 21st, 2010, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by JCWohlschlag

Arizona v. Hicks?

Yes, that's the one. Hard to reconcile that with the routine running of serial numbers of guns seized from law-abiding citizens "just to make sure it's not stolen". If a cop temporarily seizes a gun during a routine traffic stop "for officer safety", how does he get from there to calling in the serial number? If the 4th Amendment means anything, it has to include guns, if there's no basis for any suspicion that the gun is stolen.

Cops don't get to pull your stereo out of the dash and run the serial number, they aren't allowed to root through your trunk to find items that might have been stolen instead of purchased at the mall that you're returning from. Guns are NOT a special area of Constitution-free operation for cops. Routine serial number tracing will eventually be shown to be a 4th Amendment violation.

And your being at a gun range doesn't give cops the right to examine your firearms.

**BanginBonnie2** · March 21st, 2010, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by glockmaster

Hey I was shooting at Ridge and Valley in Coopersburg and someone came by, I don't know what his status is at the club because he did not identify himself, and informed me and the other people on the pistol range that "just to let you know there was an AR found up on the rifle range that someone had just left there and the police were called and it turns out it had been reported stolen."

He then said that police may be stopping by and "asking to see people's guns."

??????????????? Wouldn't this be illegal? They just couldn't ask to see anything without a warrant or some suspicion of a crime, right?

I also told him there is no "registry" in PA and that if I wouldn't be letting any police look at anything of mine and left it at that.

' Big fellow ' ? ... the big guy with the white Dodge p/u is Freddy ... nice guy ... can't picture him cavin' to Illegal Search

Good part ... at least the cops have some prints

Edit: spoke to Fred ... cops collected ' everything left behind ', no specifics yet.

B T W ... Ridge + Valley having a Ham Shoot today ( Sunday ) starting at Noon .... bring 'yer 12 ga.