Is it legal to carry to the polls if your polling place is in a school?

[OneTimer]

I found this forum while researching the legality of OC at polling places in PA and was hoping to get some input on this question:

I understand from my research that, as a general rule, it is legal to OC in a polling place. However, what if the polling place is located in a school building? 18 Pa. C.S. 912 (below) suggests that it may not be legal to carry in a school building (though the "for other lawful purpose" language makes it far from clear).

So, what do you think, can you possess a firearm in an elementary or secondary educational institution if that institution is your polling place and you are there to vote? Put differently, have you committed a misdemeanor in the first degree if you carry to a polling place located in a school?

§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon"
in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime),
"weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be
limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-
chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool,
instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily
injury.
(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on
the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to
or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational
institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed
by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary
parochial school.
(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is
possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised
school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful
purpose.

[MDJschool]

On the contrary, "for other lawful purpose" makes the statute very clear. However, the way executive agencies and judges seem to be treating the law is different from that plain wording. In that case, I don't see what would contrast voting from any other lawful purpose (e.g. self-defense).

There's already at least one case with a hint of dicta that 912(c) ought to only be for police and security. A judge in Union county doesn't think an LTCF for the purpose of self-defense means you're carrying with a lawful purpose on school grounds. http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ml#post1114232 Keeping a handgun in your car even while you have an LTCF will also get you arrested in Montgomery county and might survive a preliminary hearing (unfortunately defendant noted here waived his hearing.) http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...-property.html

If my polling place was on school grounds per 18 Pa.C.S. 912 or within 1000 ft of school grounds per 18 USC 922(q), I think I'd sue. Another thing to do would be to determine how polling places are decided per election code and your board of elections and get it changed that way. This is something that should be done sooner rather than later (if you are planning for primaries); as I don't know how long getting a declaratory judgment or some sort of injunction could take.

[Curmudgeon]

I found this forum while researching the legality of OC at polling places in PA and was hoping to get some input on this question:

I understand from my research that, as a general rule, it is legal to OC in a polling place. However, what if the polling place is located in a school building? 18 Pa. C.S. 912 (below) suggests that it may not be legal to carry in a school building (though the "for other lawful purpose" language makes it far from clear).

So, what do you think, can you possess a firearm in an elementary or secondary educational institution if that institution is your polling place and you are there to vote? Put differently, have you committed a misdemeanor in the first degree if you carry to a polling place located in a school?

§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon"
in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime),
"weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be
limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-
chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool,
instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily
injury.
(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on
the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to
or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational
institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed
by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary
parochial school.
(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is
possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised
school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful
purpose.

Emphasis is by me.

Some folks think that carrying your firearm while in possession of your LTCF, for the purposes of self-defense is covered by "or other lawful purpose". It must be stated that this has not been tested in any court that we know of. Care to be the test case?

I feel fortunate that my polling place is not a school. I have open carried to my poll and it was uneventful.

[OneTimer]

Some folks think that carrying your firearm while in possession of your LTCF, for the purposes of self-defense is covered by "or other lawful purpose". It must be stated that this has not been tested in any court that we know of. Care to be the test case?

I am not an owner. I am, however, the Judge of Elections of my polling place, which is in a school. I take my duties seriously and want to be prepared if ever confronted with this situation. My general take is that, as a Judge of Elections, my job is to enforce the Election Code. The Election Code says nothing about carrying in a polling place, so it would be outside the scope of my authority to tell someone they could not carry in the polling place. However, I could easily foresee the scenario where a school official causes a stir and asks me to intervene. I come across this forum while researching the applicable law in the event that happened.

Thank you for the links to the threads about 912. It seems like this is still an unsettled issue. One argument regarding 912 that I did not see addressed in those threads is this: If you can carry in a school for the lawful purpose of self defense, then what is the point of the statute? In other words, who does the statute prevent from carrying in a school that already would not be prevented from carrying in a school under the general firearm laws? To put it in legal-speak (yes, I am a lawyer), if "for any lawful purpose" means "self defense," then isn't 912 "mere surplussage"? If so, then the general rules of statutory construction would suggest that "for any lawful purpose" means something other than for self defense.

Perhaps a gun owner whose polling place is in a school should consider bringing a declaratory judgment action over the meaning of the phrase "for any lawful purpose." Until the issue is resolved, I would think a gun owner would have a reasonable fear about his or her ability to carry in a polling place located in a school, which probably means that he or she has standing to raise the issue preemptively. I would feel much better, when exercising my duties as Judge of Elections, if there was some clarity on the law here.

[gnbrotz]

I am not an owner. I am, however, the Judge of Elections of my polling place, which is in a school. I take my duties seriously and want to be prepared if ever confronted with this situation. My general take is that, as a Judge of Elections, my job is to enforce the Election Code. The Election Code says nothing about carrying in a polling place, so it would be outside the scope of my authority to tell someone they could not carry in the polling place. However, I could easily foresee the scenario where a school official causes a stir and asks me to intervene.

At which point you should state to them the same thing you have stated here: "That is outside the scope of my authority."

If you can carry in a school for the lawful purpose of self defense, then what is the point of the statute? In other words, who does the statute prevent from carrying in a school that already would not be prevented from carrying in a school under the general firearm laws? To put it in legal-speak (yes, I am a lawyer), if "for any lawful purpose" means "self defense," then isn't 912 "mere surplussage"?

The utility is that it allows an additional charge (and potential sentence) to potentially be levied against those who would carry out violence on school grounds.

[OneTimer]

The utility is that it allows an additional charge (and potential sentence) to potentially be levied against those who would carry out violence on school grounds.

Thanks. This seems like a great test case of the "for any lawful purpose" language, as 912 seemingly pits one Constitutional right (the right to bear arms) against another (the right to vote).

[RJT]

Thanks. This seems like a great test case of the "for any lawful purpose" language, as 912 seemingly pits one Constitutional right (the right to bear arms) against another (the right to vote).

actually, you don't have a Constitutional right to vote...lotta people make that mistake of thinking you do...Right to Freedom of Speech, Right to Freedom OF Religion, Right to KBA, Right to Pay Income Tax, no Right to Vote

note that's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion

[OneTimer]

actually, you don't have a Constitutional right to vote...lotta people make that mistake of thinking you do...

I was imprecise. I was referring to one's right to vote under the Pennsylvania Constitution (Art. VII, section 1).

Put differently, 912, arguably, requires you to sacrifice one Constitutional right (to bear arms under the PA and US Constitutions) to exercise another Constitutional right (the right to vote under the PA Constitution) if your polling place is a school.

[kevindsingleton]

actually, you don't have a Constitutional right to vote...lotta people make that mistake of thinking you do...Right to Freedom of Speech, Right to Freedom OF Religion, Right to KBA, Right to Pay Income Tax, no Right to Vote

note that's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion

What're these "right(s) to vote" mentioned in the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments, if that be the case?

[tdyoung58]

I heard about a possible case in Annville, PA where a man carried openly into a school and was aquitted under the "lawful purpose"

But I have never seen and 'official' evidence of this.

If anyone else has I'd be interested in seeing / reading it