Chestnuthill Township Park, in violation of UFA

[jcabin]

I like my park, it's a very nice park. To be honest, I have rarely ever used the park.

Now that I have a daughter who is 2 months away from her 1 year birthday, who is starting to walk already, I think that she would enjoy using these public facilities. Unfortunately, daddy isn't allowed to go with her. Why? Well because her father takes responsibility for his childs safety above all else. As such, he carries a firearm in the event that a person(s) would attempt to harm him or his daughter in a grievous manner. The township has an ordinance which prohibits the "possession" of a firearm on public property. As we all know, this ordinance is in violation of statutory law.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6120: Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition
(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.


The below is the problem:

Chestnuthill Township http://www.ecode360.com/?custId=CH1340

Chapter 78: Parks and Recreational Areas, Article 1, Section 78-12: Prohibited Conduct; C.
"No person shall possess or discharge any type of firearm, bow and arrow, air gun, slingshot, fireworks or any other weapon within the park."

[Adopted 7-16-1996 by Ord. No. 1996-01]


AFAIK there is no signage in the park itself stating the prohibition of firearm possession, however, it is still an active ordinance. As such, I can still be fined by the township, and possibly arrested by the state police, simply for lawfully carrying a firearm. Which, mind you, is protected by statutory preemption. Now, since I would not like either of those things to happen, I'm going to start looking into who I should contact to have this resolved.

I would like to attend one of the township meetings, unfortunately I work from the afternoon into the night, so doing such a thing would be impossible.

[jahwarrior72]

AFAIK there is no signage in the park itself stating the prohibition of firearm possession, however, it is still an active ordinance. As such, I can still be fined by the township, and possibly arrested by the state police, simply for lawfully carrying a firearm. Which, mind you, is protected by statutory preemption. Now, since I would not like either of those things to happen, I'm going to start looking into who I should contact to have this resolved.

you can be fined, and possibly arrested (though i doubt it), but the fine would be illegal, and would have no hope of holding up in court.

as far as who to contact, i'd start with the county/township/city parks director, and the solicitor, get a meeting with them, and bring the statutes with you. keep your argument and presentation simple. inform them that the ordinance is in violation of state law, and that if anyone is ever charged with violating such an ordinance, they can expect legal action, as well as media scrutiny.

i don't expect they'll listen, however, and your only recourse would be to just go ahead and carry in the park. a bunch of us here my way make regular trips to McDade Park, which is a county park. i've gone through the whole process of contacting local agencies, like the Parks Department, the County Solicitor, the County Commissioners, the Sheriff, and others. other members here have also been putting work in. so far, one sign has been removed from the park that i know of, but there are still a dozen more.

so, i just go carry openly. a bunch of us have done it. so far, no one's been asked to leave. the deputy sheriff has said that if they receive a MWAG call, they will escort the person carrying out of the park, and if they refuse, charge them with being a public nuisance, and disorderly conduct. we'll see what happens. i'm probably going to be there tomorrow with my daughter.

[CHEMICAL]

interesting...count me in, my kids and I love that park...(except for the damn bugs, don't forget the "OFF")

Especially with the element that has been hanging around there lately, loud obnoxious behavior, yelling obscenities, and in general acting in thuggish manor, I wouldn't feel that I or my children are safe there if I didn't carry a gun.

[Exbiker]

I`ve brought it up at a supervisors meeting and my take is that although it`s listed it can`t be enforced nor would it. Since it`s an ordinance and state police don`t enforce ordinance the only one left would be the part time Zoning Officer.

It took me a long time to finally get the no smoking signs posted.

There is only one shady group. They used to hang in the overflow but since it`s closed they`re at the other end. Usually a kid with a blue pickup and wood utility body. Except driving too fast they don`t seem to bother anybody. The B-ball boys are loud but also no real issues. I`m there almost every day as long as the weather is decent.

[Exbiker]

I would like to attend one of the township meetings, unfortunately I work from the afternoon into the night, so doing such a thing would be impossible.

One of our supervisors will meet with you as long as you call ahead. Ask to meet with Chuck Gould. You can also put your concern in writing and drop it off, attention supervisors and make a note to have them read it for the minutes at the meeting.

[jcabin]

I`ve brought it up at a supervisors meeting and my take is that although it`s listed it can`t be enforced nor would it. Since it`s an ordinance and state police don`t enforce ordinance the only one left would be the part time Zoning Officer.

If the ordinance can't and won't be enforced, why hasn't it been removed? The only thing a dead law can do is create trouble for someone who is unlucky enough to have it enforced upon them. Even though nothing will/can come of it, in the process of proving the ordinance is illegal, by paying court costs, it is a huge hassle for the poor soul that gets the ticket.

If anything, it's a liability for the township. For example, if a person was fined for lawfully carrying, using the illegal ordinance, that person would then sue the township for the court costs. Costing the township money, where if the ordinance was removed, such a thing would never occur. It's also likely the township could be sued for simple damages, ie, putting the citizen through all the trouble when it didn't have to happen. Especially now that I know the township knows the ordinance is illegal. There is no excuse.

[Exbiker]

If anything, it's a liability for the township. For example, if a person was fined for lawfully carrying, using the illegal ordinance, that person would then sue the township for the court costs. Costing the township money, where if the ordinance was removed, such a thing would never occur. It's also likely the township could be sued for simple damages, ie, putting the citizen through all the trouble when it didn't have to happen. Especially now that I know the township knows the ordinance is illegal. There is no excuse.

Your just quoting what has been posted and said before. If you feel it`s your civic duty then take time to do what your conscience tells you. I let them know it was unenforceable and violates preemption. I carry at the park, at the park meetings, at the zoning hearing board meetings and at the monthly meetings. If anybody wants to ticket me so be it i`ll deal with it then.

[jcabin]

Your just quoting what has been posted and said before. If you feel it`s your civic duty then take time to do what your conscience tells you. I let them know it was unenforceable and violates preemption. I carry at the park, at the park meetings, at the zoning hearing board meetings and at the monthly meetings. If anybody wants to ticket me so be it i`ll deal with it then.

I have no intention of concealing my gun for the next 6 months, weather permitting. That being said I would like to know there is safety from being prosecuted criminally and civilly for open carrying on preempted property. I'm going to send mr gould some information and see what he says. It would just make me feel better knowing that the ordinance was removed. If they acknowledge it's ineptitude, and claim they cannot and will not enforce it, why is it still there? It only serves to cause a problem where one does not exist.

It only takes one busy body with nothing better to do, who spends all her day sitting in the park so she can cause problems for people.

[Exbiker]

If in fact you are truly an activist and are championing the rights of individuals protecting them from possible prosecution and as a side benefit saving municipalities all those legal fees and award money there are hundreds of controversial, illegal and unconstitutional ordinances and laws on the books that you can spend the next 50 years fighting. Most of which could effect you if somebody dug them up.

[Dredly]

If in fact you are truly an activist and are championing the rights of individuals protecting them from possible prosecution and as a side benefit saving municipalities all those legal fees and award money there are hundreds of controversial, illegal and unconstitutional ordinances and laws on the books that you can spend the next 50 years fighting. Most of which could effect you if somebody dug them up.

Wish I could find it again but I saw something a good 15+ years ago that was like "stupid laws of Monroe County"... everything from "you must turn your car off at intersections" to insane noise requirements, requirements on the color of your fence, minimum height of fences... etc