Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Full text not available at this time. Text to be posted when it becomes available.

    see: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...type=B&bn=2358

    Regular Session 2009-2010
    House Bill 2358

    Short Title: An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, in firearms and other dangerous articles, further providing for the offense of persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms.
    Prime Sponsor: Representative HARPER


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  2. #2
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    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Sponsors: HARPER, BEYER, MILLER, MILNE, PAYTON, SANTARSIERO, SAYLOR, TALLMAN and TRUE

  3. #3
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    pittsburgh-area, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Just so this is clear:

    This bill basically states: For the normal Jill/Joe 6 pack,

    No gun ownership
    No gun sales
    No usage (no shooting of firearms)
    No giving guns to other legal PA residents


    Yes. no. maybe??

    SO A BILL BANNING ALL FIREARMS AND THEIR USE, FOR THE ENTIRE STATE OF PA!

    Just checking.

    Mike
    Careful some of those Zombies could be Americans!

  4. #4
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    butler twp., Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18


  5. #5
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Quote Originally Posted by cadence2arms View Post
    Sure looks like it

  6. #6
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Brick View Post
    Full text not available at this time. Text to be posted when it becomes available.

    see: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...type=B&bn=2358

    Regular Session 2009-2010
    House Bill 2358

    Short Title: An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, in firearms and other dangerous articles, further providing for the offense of persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms.
    Prime Sponsor: Representative HARPER
    Well, based on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by cadence2arms View Post
    It should look something pretty much like this: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/...r=2708&pn=4197 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...type=B&BN=2708)
    Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
    "--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100

  7. #7
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Current Commonwealth law, found at Section 6105 of Title 18 (Crimes Code), contains a list of 38 different criminal offenses. Individuals convicted of those offenses, or of any equivalent offense under federal law or the laws of other states, are prohibited from possessing a gun.
    There is, however, a loophole in this list regarding inchoate crimes (conspiracy, solicitation and attempt). While an individual convicted of kidnapping is prohibited from possessing a gun, an individual convicted of conspiracy to commit kidnapping is not. While the potential for prison time and fines are exactly the same for kidnapping and conspiracy to commit kidnapping, the firearm prohibition under state law does not apply to the conspiracy conviction.
    In the near future, I intend to introduce legislation to address this loophole. Individuals convicted of attempt, solicitation or conspiracy to commit any of the 38 crimes already listed in the law would be prohibited from firearm ownership. This legislation was introduced as House Bill 2708 in the 2005 -2006 session and passed the House by a vote of 194-0.
    If you are interested in cosponsoring this legislation, please contact Erin Parker at (717) 787-2801 or email heratee.parker@pahousegQp.com.


    Hardly a "loophole", since any state felony or misdemeanor is already a Federal prohibitor. This bimbo is arguing that we need to criminalize it twice, or we're not doing enough? Is she even aware that PICS will stop a sale if the applicant is barred EITHER under state or Federal law?

    The serious problem here is that if the state and Feds each make something a crime, then each defendant can be tried twice for the same alleged crime, without running afoul of double jeopardy. Those cops in the Rodney King beating trial? They were acquitted once, then tried a second time for the same exact actions, but under the Federal statutes. If all evil acts are made crimes by the states and by the Feds, then "double jeopardy" means nothing, and anyone without a trust fund WILL be convicted just as soon as he runs out of money to pay his lawyers.

    Too many people plead guilty to crimes they never committed, just because they can't afford the cost of hundreds of hours of legal time. If the government can double those costs with 2 trials, then any person can be bankrupted and convicted, regardless of the facts or law.

    This is a truly bad idea, and it's part of a fascist trend to give government more power in violation of the Constitution:
    5th Amendment:
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  8. #8
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    (Adams County)
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Now, I am no lawyer here, so I will defer to the excellence of GunLawyer001, but isn't there a clause in the Commonwealth Constitution that directly addresses firearms ownership? Or would this override it?

    Looks like it is time to write some letters...
    Oath Keeper, MMIX - Ad Infinitum

  9. #9
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Current Commonwealth law, found at Section 6105 of Title 18 (Crimes Code), contains a list of 38 different criminal offenses. Individuals convicted of those offenses, or of any equivalent offense under federal law or the laws of other states, are prohibited from possessing a gun.
    There is, however, a loophole in this list regarding inchoate crimes (conspiracy, solicitation and attempt). While an individual convicted of kidnapping is prohibited from possessing a gun, an individual convicted of conspiracy to commit kidnapping is not. While the potential for prison time and fines are exactly the same for kidnapping and conspiracy to commit kidnapping, the firearm prohibition under state law does not apply to the conspiracy conviction.
    In the near future, I intend to introduce legislation to address this loophole. Individuals convicted of attempt, solicitation or conspiracy to commit any of the 38 crimes already listed in the law would be prohibited from firearm ownership. This legislation was introduced as House Bill 2708 in the 2005 -2006 session and passed the House by a vote of 194-0.
    If you are interested in cosponsoring this legislation, please contact Erin Parker at (717) 787-2801 or email heratee.parker@pahousegQp.com.


    Hardly a "loophole", since any state felony or misdemeanor is already a Federal prohibitor. This bimbo is arguing that we need to criminalize it twice, or we're not doing enough? Is she even aware that PICS will stop a sale if the applicant is barred EITHER under state or Federal law?

    The serious problem here is that if the state and Feds each make something a crime, then each defendant can be tried twice for the same alleged crime, without running afoul of double jeopardy. Those cops in the Rodney King beating trial? They were acquitted once, then tried a second time for the same exact actions, but under the Federal statutes. If all evil acts are made crimes by the states and by the Feds, then "double jeopardy" means nothing, and anyone without a trust fund WILL be convicted just as soon as he runs out of money to pay his lawyers.

    Too many people plead guilty to crimes they never committed, just because they can't afford the cost of hundreds of hours of legal time. If the government can double those costs with 2 trials, then any person can be bankrupted and convicted, regardless of the facts or law.

    This is a truly bad idea, and it's part of a fascist trend to give government more power in violation of the Constitution:
    5th Amendment:
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Disclaimer: I'm not implying endorsement of the bill but trying to get at the "validity" of the stated justification.

    I thought the reason for the PICS system, sitting on top of the NICS system, was that because some of the PA prohibitors were NOT prohibitors at the Federal level. So would that not imply that "attempt, solicitation or conspiracy" convictions for the PA, but not federal, category prohibitors, would also NOT be federal prohibitors?

    While I really don't see the need, since I don't think the bill would make a difference in any but a very few cases, I think I do see the reasoning behind it.
    Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
    "--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100

  10. #10
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    Default Re: HB 2358 Amending Title 18

    Quote Originally Posted by -JD- View Post
    Disclaimer: I'm not implying endorsement of the bill but trying to get at the "validity" of the stated justification.

    I thought the reason for the PICS system, sitting on top of the NICS system, was that because some of the PA prohibitors were NOT prohibitors at the Federal level. So would that not imply that "attempt, solicitation or conspiracy" convictions for the PA, but not federal, category prohibitors, would also NOT be federal prohibitors?

    While I really don't see the need, since I don't think the bill would make a difference in any but a very few cases, I think I do see the reasoning behind it.
    Section 905. Grading of criminal attempt, solicitation and conspiracy.
    (a) Grading.—Except as otherwise provided in this title, attempt, solicitation and conspiracy are crimes of the same grade and degree as the most serious offense which is attempted or solicited or is an object of the conspiracy.


    Any conviction for criminal attempt, solicitation or conspiracy would be graded the same as the underlying offense, and any M-1 or felony is already a prohibitor under Federal law. Check the grading on each of the listed PA prohibitors.

    This is not an attempt to fill in a loophole, it's an attempt to have two complete sets of laws regulating the same conduct, under which the state and federal prosecutors get 2 bites of the apple without technically violating double jeopardy.

    To the ordinary citizen who hasn't been brainwashed into seeing the Emperor's new clothes, it sure looks like he can be tried once, acquitted, and then tried again next door at the Federal building, for the exact same crime.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

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