Lets talk about wadcutters...

[Philadelphia]

Now as for melting and vaporizing, I have recovered cast bulets (lots of them) with the grease still intact in the grooves, even a few from the 30-30, around 2000 fps. I'm thinking that the heat expressed here in these experiments is largely on the surfacem and that the internal temperatures of these fired bullets doesn't get to those extreme temps.

That has to be I think. If it hit such a high temp "inside" the bullet rather than just surface heating, the lead would soften likely too much.

It was long ago now but I'm sure I recall touching recovered just fired bullets and they were hot -- very hot.

Maybe a little temp sensor somehow small enough inside the bullet with a sufficiently fast response to temp. changes -- such as in a tiny cavity in the bullet something of a definite shape that would melt to change its shape or substances that change color in response to known temperature bands. Then you'd know if ice, water or wax could work (I don't think so but who knows?).

[justashooter]

upside down hollow based wadcutters of typical target grade hardness can be pushed thru a forcing cone at up to 800-900 FPS without losing their skirt in the cone. losing skirt in cone is bad ju-ju on the next shot. cracked forcing cone, bulged barrel, cracked frame, the possibilities are limitless. that being said, 3 grains bullseye gives such reverse loaded wadcutters about 750-800 FPS in most revolvers. this load will make an armadillo into a purse in no time flat, in my experience.

solid wadcutters, cast hard (14-18 BHN) can be pushed up to 1500 FPS with no issues, and cut cleanly thru everything and anything short of ballistic armour rated for that velocity. they shatter small bones, punch thru hip bones, skulls, scapulas, etc, and don't glance off on hits from perpendicular to within 30 degrees of parallel like jacketed bullets. semi-wadcutters do nearly as well, and are faster coming off a speedloader.

where it gets really interesting is in the loading of multi-projectile ammo. short wadcutters of about 60 grains can be loaded under a 125 grain jacketed or cast bullet. in some cases interior wall profile allows loading of 3 such wadcutters (without the 125, of course). all 3 will print within a playing card at 7 yards, and will penetrate well enough, giving multiple hits for greater tissue and nervous damage in the moment of impact. powder charge for such 180 grain combinations would be something on the order of 5 grains unique for a mildly +p load.

[GRIZ]

I just finished reading Cirillo's book....."Guns, Bullets and Gunfights"......IHO a jacked up wad cutter type was a much better defensive round than most conical shapes even JHP for CQB with a pistol. His experience showed much larger entry wound especially if the bullet profile had a split face like some he designed....didn't mushroom but butterflied open.......nasty.


I knew Jim and in his quest for the magic bullet most of his designs took a wadcutter shape. There is nothing wrong with the wadcutter bullet for SD it's just that factories load them mild. Factories used to load a standard velocity wadcutter that was a bit faster. I've tried the reverse wadcutter stuff and it really doesn't work that well.

I carry wadcutters in 38 spl J frame revolvers because:

1. You really don't get a lot more out of a +P except extra wear on the gun.

2. The bullet is already in an efficient shape. Any hollowpoint has to expand a bit before it gets to the same shape as a wadcutter. If the hollowpoint doesn't expand it turns into a wadcutter shape.

3. A wadcutter (due to it's weight) gives about 14"+ in ballistic gel so there's adequate penetration.

4. The low recoil and muzzle flash allow for quick recovery and followup shots.

5. A factory wadcutter from a 2" barrel starts to get unstable at about 50 yards and starts to wobble. There is still enough accuracy at 100 yards to hit an 18" steel plate shooting standing DA.

6. At 25 yds I can easily shoot 3-4" groups (standing DA) with wadcutters with any 2' revolver I own. I can do the same with a +P or +P+ but not as fast (see #4).

Remember it's all about shot placement when you see people proud of the 8" groups they shoot at 7 yds.

5.

[xXxplosive]

The wadcutter design seems intrieging to me as well. After reading Jims book and all about his quest for the perfect defensive round, it seems this design makes sense. Obviously, ammo companies don't believe this type of design would sell.....not flamboyant enough looking I guess.

In Cirillo's tests some of those rounds in his pics opened up to 1" in Dia. That's gotta create some wound channel and deliver overwhelming upset to the target area struck. Isn't this what everyone is striving for in a CQB defensive round...? One which stays within the target, reduces the chances of innocents being injured and delivering a lethal blow..........

So what's the deal.....?

Anyone remember the "Scorpion Load" by Federal I believe.........Wadcutter design with a hollow cavity and post in the middle....had some back in the late '70's.

[Flash]

The wadcutter design seems intrieging to me as well. .
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So what's the deal.....?

Anyone remember the "Scorpion Load" by Federal I believe.........Wadcutter design with a hollow cavity and post in the middle....had some back in the late '70's.

Well, there is all this current thinking about penetration of clothing, cause in winter. some people wear multiple layers of clothing, well heck, in summer, too. Haybe even a leather jacket.

Current fad in testing is penetration of two layers of denim before hitting the gelatin block. Then, see what penetration you get. Now, if you could be assured that any potential assailant was only wearing two layers of denim . . .

As for the "post in the middle" thingie, look at certain variations of the HydraShok.

Flash

[JCWohlschlag]

Current fad in testing is penetration of two layers of denim before hitting the gelatin block.

The current non-fad in testing is the FBI protocol, which uses “four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch).” They throw in a bunch of other intermediate barrier tests, too.

[Flash]

The current non-fad in testing is the FBI protocol, which uses “four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch).” They throw in a bunch of other intermediate barrier tests, too.

JC, you are, no doubt, spot-on in regards to real TESTING, a'la FBI. They do it in a truly scientific manner, heck they even chronograph the loads.


The "current fad" to which I was referring is repesented by that ever-popular source of entertainment and truly definitive high-tech "testing", MythBusters . . . and to some extent, the much-viewed Box-O-Truth.

Do I get a pass on it?

Flash

[JCWohlschlag]

JC, you are, no doubt, spot-on in regards to real TESTING, a'la FBI. They do it in a truly scientific manner, heck they even chronograph the loads.


The "current fad" to which I was referring is repesented by that ever-popular source of entertainment and truly definitive high-tech "testing", MythBusters . . . and to some extent, the much-viewed Box-O-Truth.

Do I get a pass on it?

Flash

Yep. I’ve seen plenty of the non-official ballistic testing as well, like the two-layer denim tests, four-layer denim tests, water jugs, etc. (“Frag nasty”, anyone? What does it mean?) I was just pointing out that there is an actual official protocol that can be followed, albeit far less loadings have been tested and have results available through the FBI protocol. While the non-official tests may not be fully accredited and all that, at least they do offer some information as long as the source is credible.

I was just injecting information for those who may not know.

[GRIZ]

Obviously, ammo companies don't believe this type of design would sell.....not flamboyant enough looking I guess.


Yeah, I guess it's not sexy looking enough. It's kind of like when the FBI adpoted the 10mm. It was the same time DoD was adpoting the M9. The 45ACP did the best in their tests but they couldn't go to Capitol Hill asking for money to buy guns in a caliber that the DoD was abandoning.

[Bruce]

solid wadcutters, cast hard (14-18 BHN) can be pushed up to 1500 FPS with no issues, and cut cleanly thru everything and anything short of ballistic armour rated for that velocity. they shatter small bones, punch thru hip bones, skulls, scapulas, etc, and don't glance off on hits from perpendicular to within 30 degrees of parallel like jacketed bullets. semi-wadcutters do nearly as well, and are faster coming off a speedloader.

...I have not personally tested any of this (and have no references to back it up) - especially with the speedloader thing (flush-set .38 Special / .357 Magnum wadcutters are just terrible for use with speedloaders, in my personal experience) - but I am inclined to agree with all of the above.

From an 'engineering' perspective, wadcutters should be outstanding projectiles.

Still, (even plated or jacketed) straight (double ended - not hollow base, flipped or otherwise) wadcutters vs. JHP of the same weight/density/hardness/materials - my "bet" would be on the JHP (for larger Permanent Wound Channel / transfer of kinetic energy).

Hard wadcutters (say, 18 BHN - or copper plated / jacketed) loaded out to max pressures should work just phenomenally as a "handgun" hunting round - doing everything that a bullet really needs to do for hunting.

They make 'nice round holes' in paper - logically, they would make 'nice round holes' in, well - "everything else".

Same-same for SemiWadCutters - which, I would imagine, would fly "straighter" for longer distances. If you were going for speed, distance, stability and penetration (in lieu of a Spire Point Bullet), I'd say that a SemiWadCutter is the way to go for a handgun.
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