Lets talk about wadcutters...

[Leftloose]

I've heard of people doing that but I've never tried it. Sounds like something to experiment with and check expansion and penetration.

Did it a long time ago with Hornady HBWC, the rounds are unstable, inaccurate and pretty much explode on impact...there was only 30-50% weight retension, depending on what you filled the cavity with....

wadcutters = target rounds. they do punch the absolutly cleanest holes in paper and their shape helps keep them stable when they leave the barrel.

I have, in my younger days, played around with the "reverse hollow based wadcutter" loads. The problem is the end of the cone has very little lead so you don't get even expansion. It's more effective you stick something in the hollow base like a small steel ball, or mercury, or a primer

All fun, but not practical, and possibly not legal everywhere either.


Mike

Back in the 60-70's, before JHP technology had advanced much and relaiable JHP's became readily available, it was loaded and carried, but other than speculation, you never heard much about it. Especially, you never heard of real-world use and results.

SuperVel and Zero started making JHP's and half-jacket HP's and the market rapidly caught up with demand so hollow-based wadcutters loaded reversed over a stiff load of Bullseye became a thing of legend more than reality.

FDlash

Kinda like filing an "X" in the nose of RN .45's.......

Put a BB in the reverse hollow based wadcutter and fill it by melting candle over the BB. It makes them open real nice.

I did all of the above back when I first started reloading...did a couple thousand HBWC's properly and then started loading them upside down and filling the cavity with different materials...it was fun, because it was new and different and "dangerous"..... but I'd still rather carry a good JHP personally.

[Flash]

Put a BB in the reverse hollow based wadcutter and fill it by melting candle over the BB. It makes them open real nice.

The hydraulics of the wax may have as much to do with expansion as the BB, maybe more.

Flash

[phill]

Drill a 1/4" hole fill with water and cap with a .25 gas check. Fun to play with as it will turn them into something like a varmint round. Lyman at one time made a .30 flat nose for the 30/30 like this.
Seriously just games to play, no way would I trust this or think of carrying it.

[Philadelphia]

Anybody know what temp a bullet reaches as it moves down the barrel and to a target at or near supersonic velocity? I had thought it gets pretty hot.

[Flash]

Anybody know what temp a bullet reaches as it moves down the barrel and to a target at or near supersonic velocity? I had thought it gets pretty hot.

Why don't you ask an easy question?

Bullets get most of their heat from the burning powder gasses. I know that.

Heat gain from the friction of the bullet moving in the air is probably minor - but I'm guessing here.

As for what temp? I have seen cast lead alloy bullets (recovered) where flame-cutting at the heel, and general melting of the surface of the base was apparent. And often a good amount of melting is evident. Those alloys melt, commonly "around" 700 degrees Farenheit. So considering the body of the bullet being a good heat-sink, and the brief time that they are exposed to the heat, the heat has to be truly significant.

Pressures in the case are in the 20,000-40,000 range in firing, so temperature has to be really, really UP. But I have no idea what it would be. What is the equation for confined gasses? Two pounds of pressure rise equals 1 degree? Or is it the other way around?

That's a good question. Hard, but good.

Flash

[Philadelphia]

Why don't you ask an easy question?

Bullets get most of their heat from the burning powder gasses. I know that.

Heat gain from the friction of the bullet moving in the air is probably minor - but I'm guessing here.

As for what temp? I have seen cast lead alloy bullets (recovered) where flame-cutting at the heel, and general melting of the surface of the base was apparent. And often a good amount of melting is evident. Those alloys melt, commonly "around" 700 degrees Farenheit. So considering the body of the bullet being a good heat-sink, and the brief time that they are exposed to the heat, the heat has to be truly significant.

Pressures in the case are in the 20,000-40,000 range in firing, so temperature has to be really, really UP. But I have no idea what it would be. What is the equation for confined gasses? Two pounds of pressure rise equals 1 degree? Or is it the other way around?

That's a good question. Hard, but good.

Flash

I was wondering because I know a fired bullet gets hot (but I don't know how hot) and I'd think that would rule out the wax and water ideas.

Supersonic air will make what it touches get very hot. I am pretty sure of that (but it's been a long time -- hard to remember).

It is a tough question.

Oh crap, might as well see if somebody knows . . .

Sure enough, rifle bullet gets over 500 degrees. Here is the Edison version (they measured it): http://www.rangerats.org/bullet.html

A better version where they explain more of what was measured and show some heating of the tip (seems most of the heat is from the powder and also bore friction):
http://www.goinfrared.com/media/2004...ards_FINAL.pdf

Here is the Einstein version (they seem to have figured it out but I don't understand any of it): http://www.fchart.com/htexamples/sol...mple_4.9-3.pdf

I don't think anything that melts, boils or vaporizes at around 400 degrees or so would last long on a bullet.

[Flash]

I was wondering because I know a fired bullet gets hot (but I don't know how hot) and I'd think that would rule out the wax and water ideas.

Supersonic air will make what it touches get very hot. I am pretty sure of that (but it's been a long time -- hard to remember).

It is a tough question.

Oh crap, might as well see if somebody knows . . .

Sure enough, rifle bullet gets over 500 degrees. Here is the Edison version (they measured it): http://www.rangerats.org/bullet.html

A better version where they explain more of what was measured and show some heating of the tip (seems most of the heat is from the powder and also bore friction):
http://www.goinfrared.com/media/2004...ards_FINAL.pdf

Here is the Einstein version (they seem to have figured it out but I don't understand any of it): http://www.fchart.com/htexamples/sol...mple_4.9-3.pdf

I don't think anything that melts, boils or vaporizes at around 400 degrees or so would last long on a bullet.

Rep sent. Your Google-Fu is awesome, and those are interesting sites. Thanks.


Now as for melting and vaporizing, I have recovered cast bulets (lots of them) with the grease still intact in the grooves, even a few from the 30-30, around 2000 fps. I'm thinking that the heat expressed here in these experiments is largely on the surfacem and that the internal temperatures of these fired bullets doesn't get to those extreme temps.

And now you HAVE got me thinking. What about a gas-checked 38 cal gelatin capsule filled with water and frozen??? That is going to be a project for early this spring. I just gotta know! Maybe a bullet made entirely of dry-ice? Of course, it would be low in weight, but let's see. I'm going to have to try this. Would it fire better out of a frozen revolver? (I've got a stainless Taurus that is begging to participate here. He has already stepped forward out of ranks two paces and held up his hand.). Oh, the possibilities are endless.....


Flash

[xXxplosive]

I just finished reading Cirillo's book....."Guns, Bullets and Gunfights"......IHO a jacked up wad cutter type was a much better defensive round than most conical shapes even JHP for CQB with a pistol. His experience showed much larger entry wound especially if the bullet profile had a split face like some he designed....didn't mushroom but butterflied open.......nasty.

[jahwarrior72]

I just finished reading Cirillo's book....."Guns, Bullets and Gunfights"......IHO a jacked up wad cutter type was a much better defensive round than most conical shapes even JHP for CQB with a pistol. His experience showed much larger entry wound especially if the bullet profile had a split face like some he designed....didn't mushroom but butterflied open.......nasty.

i read the same article, and thought it was a fascinating iea. what he described was basically a type of dum-dum bullet. i carry JHP's in my 1911 and my .38 snubbie; i've been discussing with another member the idea of putting a steel ball bearing in the cavity, to aid in feeding, penetration, and expansion, much like a Pow'r'Ball, but with steel, not polymer. as far as we know, it's perfectly legal to alter bullets in this fashion, so i plan on trying it out on some ammo, and testing it.

[Steve_NEPhila]

You may get some interesting and erratic results from doing a Mr. Wizard project with home made bullets. However, the guys over at Hornady have really done their homework with the critical defense loads. I have seen the videos and they perform very very well. I have also tested them at the range for accuracy and reliability and I can say, right on. Practically speaking it is easier and possibly more reliable to use something like the critical defense loads that operate on a similar principal.