Battle Rifles vs. Assault Rifles

[billt]

Fragmentation has nothing to do with "stopping power". In Africa most countries that allow the taking of the "Big 5" have a .40 caliber minimum requirement. There is a reason for this. Bigger calibers relate to more stopping power, PERIOD. Saying the .223 has more stopping power than the .308 is like saying the .300 Win. Mag. has more stopping power than the .458 Win. Mag. because it can drive small slugs faster, thereby causing them to "fragment". Total nonsense.

It's no deep, dark secret that the M-4 has had serious performance problems in Iraq. Google "M-4 rifle problems" and you'll get the phone book, along with enough fireplace reading to keep you busy until late Spring. The 5.56 MM cartridge is suspect also. If it wasn't you wouldn't be seeing so many M-14's coming out of mothballs, and in such high demand. The 9 MM NATO round is being dumped by many of the Special Ops. guys in favor of .45 ACP's in various flavors.

An average size Mule Deer has a Cardiovascular System much the same in size and function as an average adult male, and is just about as hard to kill. In several states it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 because it simply doesn't have enough soup to reliably get humane kills. So it shouldn't come as a shock when we use what is basically a varmint round in our military weapons, we're going to get soldiers griping, and wanting more powerful weapons. A woodchuck is easier to kill than a raghead. That is common sense. Bill T.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Fragmentation has nothing to do with "stopping power". In Africa most countries that allow the taking of the "Big 5" have a .40 caliber minimum requirement. There is a reason for this. Bigger calibers relate to more stopping power, PERIOD. Saying the .223 has more stopping power than the .308 is like saying the .300 Win. Mag. has more stopping power than the .458 Win. Mag. because it can drive small slugs faster, thereby causing them to "fragment". Total nonsense.

It's no deep, dark secret that the M-4 has had serious performance problems in Iraq. Google "M-4 rifle problems" and you'll get the phone book, along with enough fireplace reading to keep you busy until late Spring. The 5.56 MM cartridge is suspect also. If it wasn't you wouldn't be seeing so many M-14's coming out of mothballs, and in such high demand. The 9 MM NATO round is being dumped by many of the Special Ops. guys in favor of .45 ACP's in various flavors.

An average size Mule Deer has a Cardiovascular System much the same in size and function as an average adult male, and is just about as hard to kill. In several states it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 because it simply doesn't have enough soup to reliably get humane kills. So it shouldn't come as a shock when we use what is basically a varmint round in our military weapons, we're going to get soldiers griping, and wanting more powerful weapons. A woodchuck is easier to kill than a raghead. That is common sense. Bill T.

If by 'stopping power' (ambiguous term) you mean energy, then you'd be right...F=M*A. I'm not going to argue, because I don't know enough about the subject...but I do know I wouldn't want to be hit with a 5.56 even at 500 meters.

[billt]

I wouldn't want to get hit with a .22 Short at 500 meters. Fragmentation is weak at best, unreliable in fact, to dispatch anything but Prairie
Dogs or woodchucks. Stopping power is just that, the ability to stop. Causing a flesh wound isn't the same as stopping an assailant cold in his tracks. One only has to look at the .45 ACP cartridge, along with it's development during the Philippine Insurrection to understand this. Or, for that matter, talk to any street cop who has been in gun fights with crazed druggies hopped up on Meth, "Angel Dust" or a dozen other street drugs that open up the blood vessels and get blood pumping into the muscles. A 9 MM has serious issues, the .45 ACP doesn't.

General Julian S. Hatcher proved this a half century ago. It's everywhere. There is no need for me to redux it here. Bill T.

[NikeBauer21]

... talk to any street cop who has been in gun fights with crazed druggies hopped up on Meth, "Angel Dust" or a dozen other street drugs that open up the blood vessels and get blood pumping into the muscles. A 9 MM has serious issues, the .45 ACP doesn't..

I know of a cop who made a routine traffic stop, and the guy all hyped up on drugs got out of his car with a knife and started coming at the cop. He emptied a mag of 9mm into the guy and he just kept coming at him.. The cop popped another mag in and shot the guy 5 more times before he dropped.

He said the department upgraded to .40 not long after.

[billt]

I know of a cop who made a routine traffic stop, and the guy all hyped up on drugs got out of his car with a knife and started coming at the cop. He emptied a mag of 9mm into the guy and he just kept coming at him.. The cop popped another mag in and shot the guy 5 more times before he dropped.

He said the department upgraded to .40 not long after.

This story is true along with dozens just like it. If you look at why the .40 took off so well, it was strictly due to the performance, or lack thereof, of the 9 MM cartridge. Bill T.

[Kaos]

yawn... turned into another 9mm/.223 sucks thread.

[Ar180shooter]

An average size Mule Deer has a Cardiovascular System much the same in size and function as an average adult male, and is just about as hard to kill. In several states it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 because it simply doesn't have enough soup to reliably get humane kills. So it shouldn't come as a shock when we use what is basically a varmint round in our military weapons, we're going to get soldiers griping, and wanting more powerful weapons. A woodchuck is easier to kill than a raghead. That is common sense. Bill T.

Same deal here in Canada. Some provinces have minimum caliber requirements for hunting deer. Even though I could technically hunt deer in my province with my Ar180, I'll stick with my 8mm Mauser or Norinco M305.

As for switching calibers to something with a little more oomph, if it's going to happen, the 6.8SPC is IMO, the way to go. Why? Because, the current M16/M4 platform can be adapted to use the cartridge without needing to replace the entire rifle or retrain the rifleman. Again, this would only be a band aid solution, but it's the most practical and cost effective (apart from upping the bullet weight in the current 5.56 rounds, which should be done in the meantime).

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I wouldn't want to get hit with a .22 Short at 500 meters. Fragmentation is weak at best, unreliable in fact, to dispatch anything but Prairie
Dogs or woodchucks. Stopping power is just that, the ability to stop. Causing a flesh wound isn't the same as stopping an assailant cold in his tracks. One only has to look at the .45 ACP cartridge, along with it's development during the Philippine Insurrection to understand this. Or, for that matter, talk to any street cop who has been in gun fights with crazed druggies hopped up on Meth, "Angel Dust" or a dozen other street drugs that open up the blood vessels and get blood pumping into the muscles. A 9 MM has serious issues, the .45 ACP doesn't.

General Julian S. Hatcher proved this a half century ago. It's everywhere. There is no need for me to redux it here. Bill T.

Maybe the coppers should be carrying around .308s. No handgun cartridge short of a .357 Magnum is good for stopping power unless you hit someone square in the eye.

yawn... turned into another 9mm/.223 sucks thread.

Yeah, for real...I wonder why people don't visit anymore?

[NikeBauer21]

It's not really to far off topic. Go back a re-read the OP. He makes statements on "stopping power" and the pros/cons of various rifles and calibers. We diverted a little bit opinion-based, but otherwise we are still pretty much on topic as far as "pros/cons of service rifles in the field"...

The 9mm/.40 topic was only brought up for a short time, because it was a subject based on the stopping power argument. Obviously, there are going to be varying opinions, and hopefully we don't go into a full-out 9mm vs .45 or anything, but the opinions have related to the OP's initial post of favorable stopping power.

JMO

[billt]

If the .223 was so damn great we wouldn't have a need, or posters talking about the 6.8 SPC, or the 6.5 Grendel. If the damn .223 did what it was supposed to do this kind of crap would never surface. A bit like a Congressman. If he, (They), were doing a good job, they wouldn't have to worry about re-election would they? A lot of Congressman, as well as, a lot of .223 Military weapons would be going south. Bill T.