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  1. #1
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    Default Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Alright, so in my rifle build thread, Tomcat mentioned that most tactical shooters choose an optic with a Mil/Mil reticle and turret. To be honest, I had no idea that such an optic even existed. Every other optic I've seen typically has Mil/MOA reticle and adjustment.

    I've never really been able to grasp the concept of mil dots, and everything that goes along with them, because, well, I just have a hard time with math and numbers in general. Then I hear that you can get optics with a Mil turret along with a Mil reticle, and after trying to educate myself in the difference, I have a headache and my brain feels like it's about to explode.

    Let's forget about using Mil's for range estimation for the time being, because that's a whole other matter that I'm not ready to tackle yet. I have a firm grasp on MOA and how that applies to making range adjustments. For instance, 1 MOA = 1" @ 100 yards, 2" @ 200 yards, etc. but when it comes to using a scope with Mil turrets for range adjustments, that's a whole new concept to me that I just simply don't understand, at all.

    I basically just need someone to explain to me in English how to make range adjustments at any given yardage with a scope equipped with Mil turrets before I have a stroke, heh.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    The nice thing about having milradian turrets to go with the reticle is that you don't have to do math to zero it. You put the center dot on the target and fire. You look down the scope to see in the reticle how many mils your point of impact is from your point of aim. The first image at this link explains how many mils different parts of the reticle represents. So if your turrets have 1/4 mil adjustments and your point of aim is a half milradian to the left and 1 milradian below your point of impact, you adjust your turrets with 2 clicks to the left and 4 down.

    That earlier link explains how to use a mil reticle for estimating ranges if you have a point of reference at the same range (which you can estimate the size of). Yes, the math here is a bit complicated--but that's what the charts are for!

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Those funny little dots in the scope aren't just for range estimation.

    Most tactical scopes have mil reticles, but MOA elevation and windage adjustments. When adjusting the scope for point of aim, point of impact, you have to convert from mils to moa.

    The mil/mil tactical scopes are generally calibrated in 1/10th mill adjustments, with mil reticles.

    What's the big deal?

    When you fire the rifle, and see the vapor trail, splash or bullet impact, you can generally estimate where, in mil relation, it impacted relative to the point of aim with the reticle. If you wanted to make a scope adjustment, you simply have to dial the adjustment.

    In your other thread, I cited an example. I fire the rifle and see the bullet splash 2 mills left and 1 mil low. with a mil/mil scope, I simply adjust 2 mills right and 1 mill up for POA/POI.

    With a scope with a mil reticle, but moa adjustment, I have to convert from mil to moa. So if I fire the rifle and see the bullet splash 2 mills left and 1 mil low. with a mil/moa scope, I need to convert that to MOA. If you hate math, then you don't want to have to do that. For this example, I'd use the 1mil = 3.5 moa conversion and dial 7 MOA right and 3.5 MOA up.

    Simple right?

    Not so fast. What happens when the bullet impact is .6 mil off? Try doing that math in your head fast. 0.6x3.5=2.1moa. the math is not bad but wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just turn the scope 0.6 mils?

    If I'm using my leupold spotting scope with the TMR reticle to get a shooter on target, I'm not giving him adjustments in MOA. I want to read it off, quickly, in Mils, and have him adjust quickly, in mils and fire the next shot.

    This is pretty important for long range/high stress shooting. If I make a bad wind call at a shot at 825 yards, I want to be able to quickly adjust for the second shot.

    for most shooters this is not that big of a hang up. but if you're in a situation where you need to act fast, the mil.mil scope is the way to go in my honest opinion.

    I've been scrounging cash for a us optics tpal for just this purpose.
    Last edited by arrrrgh15; March 12th, 2010 at 05:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Quote Originally Posted by arrrrgh15 View Post
    Those funny little dots in the scope aren't just for range estimation.

    Most tactical scopes have mil reticles, but MOA elevation and windage adjustments. When adjusting the scope for point of aim, point of impact, you have to convert from mils to moa.

    The mil/mil tactical scopes are generally calibrated in 1/10th mill adjustments, with mil reticles.

    What's the big deal?


    When you fire the rifle, and see the vapor trail, splash or bullet impact, you can generally estimate where, in mil relation, it impacted relative to the point of aim with the reticle. If you wanted to make a scope adjustment, you simply have to dial the adjustment.

    In your other thread, I cited an example. I fire the rifle and see the bullet splash 2 mills left and 1 mil low. with a mil/mil scope, I simply adjust 2 mills right and 1 mill up for POA/POI.

    With a scope with a mil reticle, but moa adjustment, I have to convert from mil to moa. So if I fire the rifle and see the bullet splash 2 mills left and 1 mil low. with a mil/moa scope, I need to convert that to MOA. If you hate math, then you don't want to have to do that. For this example, I'd use the 1mil = 3.5 moa conversion and dial 7 MOA right and 3.5 MOA up.

    Simple right?

    Not so fast. What happens when the bullet impact is .6 mil off? Try doing that math in your head fast. 0.6x3.5=2.1moa. the math is not bad but wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just turn the scope 0.6 mils?

    If I'm using my leupold spotting scope with the TMR reticle to get a shooter on target, I'm not giving him adjustments in MOA. I want to read it off, quickly, in Mils, and have him adjust quickly, in mils and fire the next shot.

    This is pretty important for long range/high stress shooting. If I make a bad wind call at a shot at 825 yards, I want to be able to quickly adjust for the second shot.

    for most shooters this is not that big of a hang up. but if you're in a situation where you need to act fast, the mil.mil scope is the way to go in my honest opinion.

    I've been scrounging cash for a us optics tpal for just this purpose.
    The problem I was having was I didn't know how far those 1/10 mil adjustments would move the POI @ X yards. For instance, at 100 yards with a scope with 1/4 MOA adjustments, to move 1" I'd have to turn the turret 4 clicks since each click is .25".

    Last night I finally found a chart that specifies how far those 1/10 adjustments move the POI at any given yardage, and I'm finally starting to understand the benefit:


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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
    The problem I was having was I didn't know how far those 1/10 mil adjustments would move the POI @ X yards. For instance, at 100 yards with a scope with 1/4 MOA adjustments, to move 1" I'd have to turn the turret 4 clicks since each click is .25".

    Last night I finally found a chart that specifies how far those 1/10 adjustments move the POI at any given yardage, and I'm finally starting to understand the benefit:
    Yeah, the whole thing is the range doesn't matter. If your scope is zeroed and you're shooting at a target that is at a completely unknown range, you can still hit the target after an initial shot if you can see where it hit at the same range as your intended target. You just hold over the same distance you missed by, but in the opposite direction. Adjusting the turrets that distance (but in the same direction that the POI is off from POA) will zero your rifle, at whatever distance you are shooting at.

    The range estimation properties of the mil reticle helps primarily with calculating holdovers for the initial shot.
    Last edited by levib; March 12th, 2010 at 08:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    You can also just buy a nice ballistics program like Sierra Infiniti and it will do the math for you.

    There are also free versions, but I don't have the links at this moment.

    Lycansomeonewillhaveonethrope

    I taught Chuck Norris to bump-fire.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    I've got another thing I'm having some trouble with on a scope that has mil adjustments, is windage. In the ballistic programs I've played around with, it usually gives a readout of wind drift in inches which is easy as pie if you're adjusting in MOA, but I don't understand how to convert wind drift in inches to Mils.

    For instance, with a 100 yard zero I just punched in the data for Federal 175gr Gold Medal Match into Hornady's ballistic calculator, and it gave me the wind drift for a 10mph wind in inches, and MOA.

    At 500 yards the drift in inches is 21.4" , now how would I convert that to mils to figure how much dope I need to put on the scope?

    Do I just take 21.4" and divide that by how many inches 1 mil is at that distance (18.0")?

    21.4 / 18 = 1.18, so just round that to 1.2 mils, and is that the dope I would need to dial in, or hold over?

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
    I've got another thing I'm having some trouble with on a scope that has mil adjustments, is windage. In the ballistic programs I've played around with, it usually gives a readout of wind drift in inches which is easy as pie if you're adjusting in MOA, but I don't understand how to convert wind drift in inches to Mils.

    For instance, with a 100 yard zero I just punched in the data for Federal 175gr Gold Medal Match into Hornady's ballistic calculator, and it gave me the wind drift for a 10mph wind in inches, and MOA.

    At 500 yards the drift in inches is 21.4" , now how would I convert that to mils to figure how much dope I need to put on the scope?

    Do I just take 21.4" and divide that by how many inches 1 mil is at that distance (18.0")?

    21.4 / 18 = 1.18, so just round that to 1.2 mils, and is that the dope I would need to dial in, or hold over?
    There is balistic software that calculates wind drift in mils and moa. I'd look to see if there is some setting in your program that will give you data back in mils or moa. You do not want to have to sit there and calculate every shot from inches to mils or moa. All of your data should be in terms of moa or mils or whatever your scope adjustments are set for. I use both mils and moa so I can do hold overs with the mil reticle, or adjust in moa. If I need to shoot targets at a variety of ranges and do not have time to make scope adjustments, I use mils. If I do have time, I adjust.

    There are free on line balistic calculators (jbm) that I have been using at sniper competitions with a great deal of success. You can customize and print data tables for a variety of situations. I normally take the charts and verify the data out to 1000 yards in the field, note any deviations, and then laminate the cards so that they do not get destroyed by rain/mud/snow.

    I list my wind drift for a 10mph wind. It is very easy to calculate wind drift that way. For instance, if it tells me that for a 10 mph, full value wind at 750 yards i have 5.9moa drift. If the wind is blowing at 4 mph, 1/2 value, I can easily compute 4x0.59=2.36/2=1.18moa. I adjust for 1.25 moa and fire. (i usually keep 2 small, cheap, solar calculators on me. I'd rather lose/destroy a cheap ass calculator than a pda).

    If you are using data that is set up to the correct units, the math becomes easy. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Quote Originally Posted by arrrrgh15 View Post
    There is balistic software that calculates wind drift in mils and moa. I'd look to see if there is some setting in your program that will give you data back in mils or moa. You do not want to have to sit there and calculate every shot from inches to mils or moa. All of your data should be in terms of moa or mils or whatever your scope adjustments are set for. I use both mils and moa so I can do hold overs with the mil reticle, or adjust in moa. If I need to shoot targets at a variety of ranges and do not have time to make scope adjustments, I use mils. If I do have time, I adjust.

    There are free on line balistic calculators (jbm) that I have been using at sniper competitions with a great deal of success. You can customize and print data tables for a variety of situations. I normally take the charts and verify the data out to 1000 yards in the field, note any deviations, and then laminate the cards so that they do not get destroyed by rain/mud/snow.

    I list my wind drift for a 10mph wind. It is very easy to calculate wind drift that way. For instance, if it tells me that for a 10 mph, full value wind at 750 yards i have 5.9moa drift. If the wind is blowing at 4 mph, 1/2 value, I can easily compute 4x0.59=2.36/2=1.18moa. I adjust for 1.25 moa and fire. (i usually keep 2 small, cheap, solar calculators on me. I'd rather lose/destroy a cheap ass calculator than a pda).

    If you are using data that is set up to the correct units, the math becomes easy. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
    I'm with Arrrrgh15 on this, it's easiest if you get the program to give you the data in the inputs that you need. For beginners, the hard thing for them to understand is that most tactical shooters don't really care about "inches". We don't need to know how many inches the bullet drops, although in a round about way we do. We need to know how may MOA or Mil's that the bullet drops, because the points are MUCH easier to remember and hold onto, and they work with our reticle and turrets. So don't get caught up in knowing how many inches of drop, all you need to know is the value that your reticle and turrets are in. If your turrets were .1 mil's, and you're using a mil reticle, there's NO reason for you to know MOA. You know the value in mils to dial on your reticle (eg. 3.2 mils), or if you didn't have time to adjust the turrets, you'd hold roughly 3.2 mils on from the center cross hair and fire. The reason that people need to know MOA and Mils are when their scopes have a mil type reticle, but then their turret adjustments are in MOA. If you want to dial in the knobs, you need to know the correct in MOA, but if you don't have the time to dial in your correction in MOA, then you have to convert that number into mils, so that you know what to hold for the target through the reticle. MOST reticles in tactical scopes are in mils. I personally would recommend that you attempt to learn mil's, but if you just absolutely cannot, there are some scope manufacturers that make MOA reticles and MOA knobs, so that your adjustments and reticles are the same. This works as well, but it's still longer numbers to memorized than mils, so most of us prefer mils and not having to count a ton of hashes, dots, etc.

    Realize that no amount of ballistic programs will give you the perfect dope at long range. LOTS of factors start to come into play that it's hard for ballistic programs to account for all of them because they don't usually have perfect input from us. That's why you should ALWAYS do what Arrrgh mentions here, which is also what myself and tons of others do as well. You pull up the ballistic program to give you and idea of about how much it's gonna take to get there, then you actually shoot it and see what the differences are. You note those differences and take THAT value, NOT the ballistic program for what you need to use. Shoot YOUR dope at a later date and see if it's correct or needs a little more refinement. The ballistic program is just there to give you a good idea of what's going on and how much elevation or wind value that you'll need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
    I've got another thing I'm having some trouble with on a scope that has mil adjustments, is windage. In the ballistic programs I've played around with, it usually gives a readout of wind drift in inches which is easy as pie if you're adjusting in MOA, but I don't understand how to convert wind drift in inches to Mils.

    For instance, with a 100 yard zero I just punched in the data for Federal 175gr Gold Medal Match into Hornady's ballistic calculator, and it gave me the wind drift for a 10mph wind in inches, and MOA.

    At 500 yards the drift in inches is 21.4" , now how would I convert that to mils to figure how much dope I need to put on the scope?

    Do I just take 21.4" and divide that by how many inches 1 mil is at that distance (18.0")?

    21.4 / 18 = 1.18, so just round that to 1.2 mils, and is that the dope I would need to dial in, or hold over?
    Your math is correct here in how you did it, although there is a bit of a "shortcut". Since you were given the data in MOA, there's a shortcut conversion to go from MOA to Mil's. You'll see some slight differences in this formula, and it's usually due to slight differences in scope manufacturers not using "true" MOA reticles, some use IPHY (Inches Per Hundred Yards), and while the difference is VERY small, it still exists. At 100 yards, 1 moa actually measures 1.0475"; while this difference is very small at 100 yards, when you start multiplying it by how many inches it takes to go 1,000 yards, it makes a difference. So some manufacturers scopes actually dial in IPHY, where 1 click actually equals .25" at 100 yards, and some dial in TRUE MOA, which is ~.262" at 100 yards. It's very difficult to tell which on lower end scopes, so that's why you MUST shoot to find out.Either way, that difference is why some people argue a bit over this conversion factor and what their scope dials to.

    All you have to do is take your dope in MOA and divide it by the number of MOA in 1 Mil. This is the number that people argue about. The real answer is there is ~3.44 MOA PER Mil (3.4375 MOA). IF you were to do this at 100 yards, it means that 1 mil covers 3.6" at 100 yards. You already had this figured out from your chart, and shown in the fact that you multiplied 5x3.6=18, for how many inches per mil at that distance. Basically some people round the number for MOA per Mil, you'll hear 3.4, 3.44, 3.5 and 3.6. I believe that in practice, the more accurate values are 3.5, and 3.6; they vary so little from the true value that just a miss of your wind call by 1 mph is more than their difference at 1,000 yards.

    So to make this short, if say you were given 4.28 MOA as your dope to dial that load at 500 yards. Don't even worry about inches, all you have to do is use (4.28 MOA / 3.5) = 1.22 mil. If you use 3.6 as the value, you get (4.28 MOA/3.6) = 1.188 which is roughly 1.19 mil. If you use (4.38 MOA / 3.44) = 1.27 mil, which is actually .1 mil MORE than what the other 2 values have. Notice that while these values differ slightly but for the values that I told you, the dope still ends up at 1.2 mil being the value that you dialed. This is why I use 3.5 or 3.6 moa per mil for my conversion. Don't worry about inches, they're just a big number that is more to remember, and more to confuse you. All you really need are the moa and mil values. No matter how much people pretend, very few people know the average length of neck on a deer to use it as a reference to "hold over" the back. At distance, it's the ONLY way to know how to hold over a set amount of inches, and it's still a relative aspect. So don't worry about inches, focus on your MOA and Mil values.

    Don't sell yourself short, you think that you're having trouble with this, but it sounds like you're starting to have a grasp of it. I'm sorry if I've overcomplicated it, or made it sound like rocket science, it's not. If you remember to use 3.5 or 3.6 as your value for converting moa to mil, you should be fine. You're getting the hang of it buddy.
    Last edited by Tomcat088; March 14th, 2010 at 10:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Mil/Mil turret adjustment help

    Thanks guys. I suppose I am over thinking this. For what little experience I have with this kind of shooting, I'm used to inches and MOA and never really spent much time learning about mils. Because of that I'm having a tough time fully grasping the mil concept, but I'll get there since it seems to be the better, more preferred method.

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