Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Assume that PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 912 is in effect, even if it's a Sunday and no classes are in session?

    Wife and I are scoping out new churches, and two of the ones on our list have attached pre-schools, so just want to be sure. Thanks...

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Yeah, we all want to be sure, but that isn't possible in this state yet.

    Another discussion on the topic:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/556...re-page-2.html

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
    than to those attending too small a degree of it."~Thomas Jefferson, 1791
    Hobson fundraiser Remember SFN Read before you Open Carry

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Yeah, that's what I figured. Thanks for the link.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Heck, I can't think of a church in my local area that does NOT have a school of some grade level attached. Possibly a couple I guess out of dozens of churches.

    No one wants to be a test case for sure. Eventually, I am afraid that something bad will happen at a PA church and a parishioner with a LTCF will intervene and we will have the test case. Until then I believe that concealed MEANS concealed for sure.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Here is the statute from the link previously posted (bold is mine)



    § 912. Possession of weapon on school property.

    1. Definition. -- Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
    2. Offense defined. -- A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.
    3. Defense. -- It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

    ADIVSORY NOTE: At the time of this update, there has been thus far no court cases interpreting "possessed for other lawful purpose" insofar as applied to those licensed under §6109, exempted under §6106(b), or open carrying on foot without the benefit of being licensed or exempted on school grounds. However, common sense would dictate that if "self defense" is a valid and lawful reason for purpose of obtaining a PA LTCF than it should also be a "lawful purpose" per this statute's exceptions.

    The statute refers only to elementary and secondary schools, not pre-schools. If church only has a pre-school, it looks like your good to go.
    Power always thinks...that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Quote Originally Posted by ROCK-IT3 View Post
    Here is the statute from the link previously posted (bold is mine)


    § 912. Possession of weapon on school property.

    1. Definition. -- Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
    2. Offense defined. -- A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.
    3. Defense. -- It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

    ADIVSORY NOTE: At the time of this update, there has been thus far no court cases interpreting "possessed for other lawful purpose" insofar as applied to those licensed under §6109, exempted under §6106(b), or open carrying on foot without the benefit of being licensed or exempted on school grounds. However, common sense would dictate that if "self defense" is a valid and lawful reason for purpose of obtaining a PA LTCF than it should also be a "lawful purpose" per this statute's exceptions.

    The statute refers only to elementary and secondary schools, not pre-schools. If church only has a pre-school, it looks like your good to go.


    Thats my thinking as well. Anything under Kindergarten is not covered by the statute. My wife works at a day care center that also contains a state licensed Kindergarten...that puts them into the statute.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Based on previous discussions on the topic, it's possible that any church which runs, or allows a private entity to run, a preschool registered with the state's DoE could be considered school property for the purposes of the statute regarding unlawful carry. In addition, it's also possible that our state issued LTCF meets the exception in the law. We just don't know for sure, as there has been no legal cases which test the law, or require the courts to publish an opinion on the law.

    If you want to be able to carry in such situations (and don't want to be a test case), the safest bet is to find a church which doesn't have a preschool.
    Last edited by ChamberedRound; March 2nd, 2010 at 11:23 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Found the PA DoE's site where you can search to see if the school attached to a church in question is licensed:

    http://www.education.state.pa.us/por...stitution/7205

    So far, I've got two hits on two attempts... *sigh* And my wife and I like both churches, too...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Quote Originally Posted by AJChenMPH View Post
    Found the PA DoE's site where you can search to see if the school attached to a church in question is licensed:

    http://www.education.state.pa.us/por...stitution/7205

    So far, I've got two hits on two attempts... *sigh* And my wife and I like both churches, too...
    What church are you looking into?
    Look to the One Who is wearing what should have been your scars...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Legal Eagles: Church w/ a Pre-School

    Quote Originally Posted by ddefazio View Post
    What church are you looking into?
    I'll send you PM.

    Okay, the church we're going to try tomorrow isn't listed on the DoE site, so that one should be good to go...

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