Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default SCOTUS Ruled that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    A very interesting case that begins to blur the lines of meaning when the court DESIRES to impose a longer sentence on a criminal.....

    But it may also set a very bad precedent for LOOSE INTERPRETATION relative to all gun-related offenses!

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    MUSCARELLO v. UNITED STATES
    http://supreme.justia.com/us/524/125/case.html

    The statute being interpreted:
    18 U. S. C. § 924(c)(I)

    The Majority Opinion Held:
    The phrase "carries a firearm" applies to a person who knowingly possesses and conveys firearms in a vehicle, including in the locked glove compartment or trunk of a car, which the person accompanies. Pp. 127-139.

    BREYER, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which STEVENS, O'CONNOR, KENNEDY, and THOMAS, JJ., joined. GINSBURG, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and SOUTER, JJ., joined, post, p. 139.

    The Dissenting Opinion:
    The narrower "on or about [one's] person" construction of "carries a firearm" is consistent with the Court's construction of "uses" in Bailey to entail an immediacy element.
    Last edited by ImminentDanger; March 2nd, 2010 at 10:10 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by ImminentDanger View Post
    A very interesting case that begins to blur the lines of meaning when the court DESIRES to impose a longer sentence on a criminal.....

    But it may also set a very bad precedent for LOOSE INTERPRETATION relative to all gun-related offenses!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    MUSCARELLO v. UNITED STATES
    http://supreme.justia.com/us/524/125/case.html

    The statute being interpreted:
    18 U. S. C. § 924(c)(I)

    The Majority Opinion Held:
    The phrase "carries a firearm" applies to a person who knowingly possesses and conveys firearms in a vehicle, including in the locked glove compartment or trunk of a car, which the person accompanies. Pp. 127-139.

    BREYER, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which STEVENS, O'CONNOR, KENNEDY, and THOMAS, JJ., joined. GINSBURG, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and SOUTER, JJ., joined, post, p. 139.

    The Dissenting Opinion:
    The narrower "on or about [one's] person" construction of "carries a firearm" is consistent with the Court's construction of "uses" in Bailey to entail an immediacy element.
    So it basically states that anything you knowingly have in your vehicle with you you're carrying.

    I don't see the problem here, it's your vehicle and you should know what's in it, after all if the vehicle is in your control, then anything in the vehicle is under your possession.

    I actually see it as a good thing, since after the 2nd amendment gets incorporated many transportation laws will be challenged in court. If having a firearm in your vehicle equates to carrying or in other words "bearing" that firearm then it will be much harder for the State laws on transportation to pass a Constitutional challenge.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSight View Post
    So it basically states that anything you knowingly have in your vehicle with you you're carrying.

    I don't see the problem here, it's your vehicle and you should know what's in it, after all if the vehicle is in your control, then anything in the vehicle is under your possession.

    I actually see it as a good thing, since after the 2nd amendment gets incorporated many transportation laws will be challenged in court. If having a firearm in your vehicle equates to carrying or in other words "bearing" that firearm then it will be much harder for the State laws on transportation to pass a Constitutional challenge.

    While your point as it pertains to firearms law challenges holds some merit. I have to say I disagree with your larger line of reasoning. If Im giving random aquaintance from work John Doe a lift home and unbeknownst to me he's a closet coke user and we get stopped for a MV violation and the coke is found stuffed under my passenger seat. How in the world should I be held responsible for that ? Are we now supposed to conduct pat downs and wand searches of every single person that ever has access to our vehicle ?

    Currently in the People's Socialist Republic of NJ, the ONLY way to legally transport a firearm is locked in the trunk or glove box, seperate from the ammo. Since NJ allows NO "carrying "or " bearing" of any kind unless your a LEO or one of the privledged class, this ruling could play havoc on NJ gun owners and leaves them far to vulnerable to abuse from the gun hating criminal justice system.

    Not to mention, I personally think the ruling is really stretching to the breaking point the definition of the word " bear ". It's my understanding that the common usage and historic definition of the word means literally "to carry on one's person ". Thats hardly the same as in a trunk or glove box.
    Last edited by son of the revolution; February 28th, 2010 at 10:25 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by son of the revolution View Post
    If Im giving random aquaintance from work John Doe a lift home and unbeknownst to me he's a closet coke user and we get stopped for a MV violation and the coke is found stuffed under my passenger seat. How in the world should I be held responsible for that ?
    under this ruling...and generally...you would not be held responsible for that--as you did not "knowingly" have the coke in your car.

    SCOTUS actually got this one right. i have issues with the underlying law, but as far as the definition of "carry" goes, they actually looked at a dictionary. hopefully, they will save that dictionary and pull it out again when a case involving the words "bear" and "infringe" come up...though i don't hold much hope for that.

    at any rate, though, transporting something in a vehicle does fit the definition of carry. just like you carry a spare tire in your trunk, you carry groceries home in your trunk, a train carries cargo, etc.
    F*S=k

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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
    SCOTUS actually got this one right. i have issues with the underlying law, but as far as the definition of "carry" goes, they actually looked at a dictionary. hopefully, they will save that dictionary and pull it out again when a case involving the words "bear" and "infringe" come up...though i don't hold much hope for that.

    at any rate, though, transporting something in a vehicle does fit the definition of carry. just like you carry a spare tire in your trunk, you carry groceries home in your trunk, a train carries cargo, etc.
    Here's the entirety of 18 U. S. C. § 924(c)
    (c)
    (1)
    (A) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided by this subsection or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses a firearm, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime—
    (i) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years;
    (ii) if the firearm is brandished, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 7 years; and
    (iii) if the firearm is discharged, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years.
    (B) If the firearm possessed by a person convicted of a violation of this subsection—
    (i) is a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or semiautomatic assault weapon, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years; or
    (ii) is a machinegun or a destructive device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 30 years.
    (C) In the case of a second or subsequent conviction under this subsection, the person shall—
    (i) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 25 years; and
    (ii) if the firearm involved is a machinegun or a destructive device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
    (D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
    (i) a court shall not place on probation any person convicted of a violation of this subsection; and
    (ii) no term of imprisonment imposed on a person under this subsection shall run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment imposed on the person, including any term of imprisonment imposed for the crime of violence or drug trafficking crime during which the firearm was used, carried, or possessed.
    (2) For purposes of this subsection, the term “drug trafficking crime” means any felony punishable under the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 801 et seq.), the Controlled Substances Import and Export Act (21 U.S.C. 951 et seq.), or chapter 705 of title 46.
    (3) For purposes of this subsection the term “crime of violence” means an offense that is a felony and—
    (A) has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another, or
    (B) that by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.
    (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term “brandish” means, with respect to a firearm, to display all or part of the firearm, or otherwise make the presence of the firearm known to another person, in order to intimidate that person, regardless of whether the firearm is directly visible to that person.
    (5) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided under this subsection, or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries armor piercing ammunition, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses armor piercing ammunition, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime or conviction under this section—
    (A) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 15 years; and
    (B) if death results from the use of such ammunition—
    (i) if the killing is murder (as defined in section 1111), be punished by death or sentenced to a term of imprisonment for any term of years or for life; and
    (ii) if the killing is manslaughter (as defined in section 1112), be punished as provided in section 1112.
    LRT.... I might apply the latter term, 'possesses', to 'locked in the the glovebox or trunk', but do you really think that interpreting the term 'carry', which in other firearms related laws means something much closer to "on or about [one's] person", is the appropriate application here??

    I think it's a distortion of the established meaning for that term relative to firearms law. As the dissenting opinion expressed.

    ...
    ID

  6. #6
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by ImminentDanger View Post
    LRT.... I might apply the latter term, 'possesses', to 'locked in the the glovebox or trunk', but do you really think that interpreting the term 'carry', which in other firearms related laws means something much closer to "on or about [one's] person", is the appropriate application here??
    yes. the word is not redefined in the statute. by both legal and common definitions, transporting something in a vehicle is carrying it.

    you do not want the courts bending the real definitions of words. that's what will allow SCOTUS to rule the 2nd is an incorporated individual right, but it does not include the right to carry a firearm outside of your home.

    btw, i would also argue that in the glove compartment is "about one's person" anyway...it is within arm's reach and moves with the person. i'd even say the trunk is "about one's person"...it is moving in conjunction with one's person.

    further, as i mentioned before, people speak of carrying things in their trunks all the time. and, more importantly, transporting something in the trunk of a vehicle does fit the definition of carry.
    F*S=k

  7. #7
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    This could be good or bad depending on what they say in McDonald and Palmer.
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" -- Penn Jillette

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." -- Ted Nugent

  8. #8
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    Currently in the People's Socialist Republic of NJ, the ONLY way to legally transport a firearm is locked in the trunk or glove box, separate from the ammo. Since NJ allows NO "carrying "or " bearing" of any kind unless your a LEO or one of the privileged class, this ruling could play havoc on NJ gun owners and leaves them far to vulnerable to abuse from the gun hating criminal justice system.
    Except that N.J. law specifies that this is the only way you can legally transport a legal firearm. Of course, if it's an illegally-possessed firearm, then "carrying" applies to the entire vehicle.

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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    SCOTUS got this one right. "Carry" has always meant transporting, not just limited to upon one's person. We do not want a limited view on that, otherwise it could be used against use just the same, forcing us to carry on our persons when carrying with a license/permit instead of leisurely view glovebox or whatever.

    If there is a problem with "carrying" in the laws, the law itself needs changed, not the meaning of the word.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: SCOTUS Rules that 'Locked in the Glovebox/Trunk' = Carry

    I agree that they got this one right. We have had this discussion a million times in relation to carry=transport as it relates to a car in Pa. The definition of the word means exactly that. I am elated if this means they are going to be consistent in defining words, and this makes it harder for them to issue this ruling and then change their definition later.

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
    than to those attending too small a degree of it."~Thomas Jefferson, 1791
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