Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default LOst and Stolen Information Site

    http://www.lostandstolen.org/

    IF your town has any intention of passing L&S ordinance, here is a link that will help you, help them and help others.

    We currently have Radnor, Swartmore Borough and Hatboro Borough attempting to pass illegal local gun laws.

    Get informed and feel free to send this link to the Local officials...
    NRA Training Counselor, Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Benefactor Member



  2. #2
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Nice site. I didn't get to read it all, but it looks like a great start.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Although I'm against the Lost and Stolen laws, I think most of the arguments on that site are pretty weak, or at least incomplete.

    I agree that imposing modest fines is not going to significantly deter straw purchasers. However, that argument only suggests that stronger penalties should be imposed, not that there should be no lost and stolen law. It doesn't address the argument proponents raise: that it is difficult to prosecute straw purchasers under existing laws because they can just claim, after the fact, that they guns were lost or stolen. How do you prosecute someone for violating all those laws listed on that site when you have no evidence, which is likely to be the situation in a great many cases?

    I can also see the municipalities arguing that PA's preemption law does not apply, because Lost and Stolen ordinances are not literally regulations on the ownership or use of firearms, because they don't say anything about what you can or can do with firearms when you are actually in possession of them. They only apply after you no longer have the weapon.

    At the moment, I confess that I can't come up with a solution to either of these issues. Anyone else have any ideas?
    Almost a LIB .... ertarian

  4. #4
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by rikilii View Post
    I can also see the municipalities arguing that PA's preemption law does not apply, because Lost and Stolen ordinances are not literally regulations on the ownership or use of firearms, because they don't say anything about what you can or can do with firearms when you are actually in possession of them. They only apply after you no longer have the weapon.
    If I'm the lawful owner of firearm #123456A, and some thief steals that firearm from me, I'm still the lawful owner of firearm #123456A, even though it is no longer in my possession.

    Therefore they are requiring that I file a report based on my ownership of a firearm.

    (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
    The law requires that when LEOs recover a stolen firearm in the possession of a minor, they return the firearm to the lawful owner.


    18 Pa.C.S. § 6110.1: Possession of firearm by minor
    (a) Firearm.--Except as provided in subsection (b), a person under 18 years of age shall not possess or transport a firearm anywhere in this Commonwealth.
    (b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to a person under 18 years of age:
    (1) who is under the supervision of a parent, grandparent, legal guardian or an adult acting with the expressed consent of the minor's custodial parent or legal guardian and the minor is engaged in lawful activity, including safety training, lawful target shooting, engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or the firearm is unloaded and the minor is transporting it for a lawful purpose; or
    (2) who is lawfully hunting or trapping in accordance with 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).
    (c) Responsibility of adult.--Any person who knowingly and intentionally delivers or provides to the minor a firearm in violation of subsection (a) commits a felony of the third degree.
    (d) Forfeiture.--Any firearm in the possession of a person under 18 years of age in violation of this section shall be promptly seized by the arresting law enforcement officer and upon conviction or adjudication of delinquency shall be forfeited or, if stolen, returned to the lawful owner.
    Also, in §6111.1 (b) (4):

    (4) The Pennsylvania State Police and any local law enforcement agency shall make all reasonable efforts to determine the lawful owner of any firearm confiscated or recovered by the Pennsylvania State Police or any local law enforcement agency and return said firearm to its lawful owner if the owner is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm. When a court of law has determined that the Pennsylvania State Police or any local law enforcement agency have failed to exercise the duty under this subsection, reasonable attorney fees shall be awarded to any lawful owner of said firearm who has sought judicial enforcement of this subsection.
    Last edited by anonymouse; February 24th, 2010 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post
    If I'm the lawful owner of firearm #123456A, and some thief steals that firearm from me, I'm still the lawful owner of firearm #123456A, even though it is no longer in my possession.

    Therefore they are requiring that I file a report based on my ownership of a firearm.



    The law requires that when LEOs recover a stolen firearm in the possession of a minor, they return the firearm to the lawful owner.




    Also, in §6111.1 (b) (4):
    Those are very good points, but to play devil's advocate, how does requiring you to report a lost or stolen handgun limit your ownership rights?

    Also, what about the rest of the statute: "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth"

    Does requiring L/S reporting have anything to do with the ownership of firearms "when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth"
    Almost a LIB .... ertarian

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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by rikilii View Post
    Also, what about the rest of the statute: "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth"

    Does requiring L/S reporting have anything to do with the ownership of firearms "when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth"
    That qualifying statement may not even play a role once the issue reaches the courts, as precedent is explained in Clarke v. House of Representatives.

    In examining the preliminary objections asserting failure to state a claim upon which relief may be granted, we turn first to the argument that the Ordinances are unenforceable because they conflict with a state statute, and Petitioners’ countervailing argument that that Section 6120 is unconstitutional because it infringes on the power of Philadelphia to pass and enforce local gun regulations. The City claims that gun regulation is a local, not a statewide, concern. In Schneck v. City of Philadelphia, 383 A.2d 227 (Pa. Cmwlth. 1978), we examined a Philadelphia ordinance which regulated the acquisition and transfer of firearms. At that time, Section 6120(a) contained language identical to that of the current version, except that it banned regulation of firearms only, not ammunition or components. Specifically, “[n]o county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession or transportation of firearms when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.” We enjoined Philadelphia from enforcing the ordinance because “[w]e believe[d] that this statute clearly preempt[ed] local governments from regulating the lawful ownership, possession and transportation of firearms, and we also believe[d] that Philadelphia’s ordinance attempt[ed] to regulate firearms in the manner indicated in the statute as prohibited.” Schneck, 383 A2d. at 229-30.

    Another Philadelphia gun ordinance later came before this court and then our Supreme Court. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279, 681 A.2d 152 (1996), aff’g Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 655 A.2d 194 (Pa. Cmwlth. 1995). In Ortiz, the cities of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia passed ordinances banning certain types of assault weapons. Our Supreme Court characterized the matter before the courts as follows:
    The sum of the case is that the Constitution of Pennsylvania requires that home rule municipalities may not perform any power denied by the General Assembly; the General Assembly has denied all municipalities the power to regulate the ownership, possession, transfer or possession of firearms; and the municipalities seek to regulate that which the General Assembly has said they may not regulate. The inescapable conclusion, unless there is more, is that the municipalities’ attempt to ban the possession of certain types of firearms is constitutionally infirm.
    Ortiz, 545 Pa. at 283-84, 681 A.2d at 155. The court went on to conclude:
    Because the ownership of firearms is constitutionally protected, its regulation is a matter of statewide concern. The constitution does not provide that the right to bear arms shall not be questioned in any part of the commonwealth except Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, where it may be abridged at will, but that it shall not be questioned in any part of the commonwealth. Thus, regulation of firearms is a matter of concern in all of Pennsylvania, not merely in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, and the General Assembly, not city councils, is the proper forum for the imposition of such regulation.
    Ortiz, 545 Pa. at 287, 681 A.2d at 156.

    The Ordinances before us are not materially different from those presented in Schneck and Ortiz. Each one seeks to regulate firearms—an area that both Section 6120 and binding precedent have made clear is an area of statewide concern over which the General Assembly has assumed sole regulatory power. As we stated in Schneck, “it is a well-established principle of law that where a state statute preempts local governments from imposing regulations on a subject, any ordinances to the contrary are unenforceable.” 383 A.2d at 229.

    In attempting to uphold the Ordinances, Petitioners argue that Section 6120’s qualifying phrase “when carried or transported” leaves room for municipalities to regulate any uses of firearms which do not involve carrying or transporting them. Petitioners argue that if the General Assembly intended to preempt any and all municipal gun control, it would have done so instead of including this limitation. Given Schneck and Ortiz, we cannot agree with this construction of the Firearms Act. The ordinances struck down in those cases were not qualitatively different in that respect from those at issue here. While Petitioners point out that the qualifying phrase “when carried or transported” was not specifically discussed in Ortiz, in light of its broad and unqualified language, we cannot distinguish Ortiz on this basis. Moreover, this language was at issue in Schneck, 383 A.2d at 230 (Crumlish, Jr., J., dissenting). There, the dissenting opinion quoted the trial court’s discussion:
    In an even broader inquiry, is the declared “limitation” on the power of a municipality to regulate “lawful ownership, possession or transportation of firearms’ confined, as defendants assert, to certain statutorily enumerated events only, i.e., ‘when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by
    the laws of this Commonwealth.” Or, as asserted by plaintiffs, has the total field of the regulation of firearms been preempted by the Commonwealth so that this clause, which invites a more limited intention, is to be modified by interpretation?
    Id. The majority concluded that Section 6120 “clearly preempts local governments from regulating the lawful ownership, possession and transportation of firearms[.]” Id. at 229-30. Thus we must conclude that binding precedent precludes our accepting Petitioners’ argument on this point.

    It’s not exactly slam dunk (and what is when it comes to court rulings?), as the exclusionary stance of the ending clause of 6120 was predicated upon the ordinances in question being “not materialistically different” from those in the cited cases, but this does show a potential manner in which the ending statement of 6120 may not be applicable.
    Last edited by JCWohlschlag; February 24th, 2010 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Thanks JC, I knew one of the cases addressed the "when carried or transported" section, but I couldn't find it last night

  8. #8
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by rikilii View Post
    Although I'm against the Lost and Stolen laws, I think most of the arguments on that site are pretty weak, or at least incomplete.

    I agree that imposing modest fines is not going to significantly deter straw purchasers. However, that argument only suggests that stronger penalties should be imposed, not that there should be no lost and stolen law. It doesn't address the argument proponents raise: that it is difficult to prosecute straw purchasers under existing laws because they can just claim, after the fact, that they guns were lost or stolen. How do you prosecute someone for violating all those laws listed on that site when you have no evidence, which is likely to be the situation in a great many cases?

    I can also see the municipalities arguing that PA's preemption law does not apply, because Lost and Stolen ordinances are not literally regulations on the ownership or use of firearms, because they don't say anything about what you can or can do with firearms when you are actually in possession of them. They only apply after you no longer have the weapon.

    At the moment, I confess that I can't come up with a solution to either of these issues. Anyone else have any ideas?
    There are existing Straw purchasing laws on the books. We have over 120 pages of Gun Laws in PA alone.

    By making the Gun Owner who has suffered a loss a criminal is wrong.
    AND, what if you have a safe of guns stolen, can they charge you per stolen pistol?(Unknown, but very possible) SO you go on vacation for 2 weeks, you come home and the police contact you and say a gun sold to you was used in a crime. You say, "I didn't know they were stolen?" Is it over then? Was that the time the 72 hours starts? Crazy questions huh? Dumb law, huh?
    Now you have to get an attorney. Cost to you?

    So now cop says, you didn't tell us and you lose your LTCF because the Police Chief calls the Sheriff and says, you were uncooperative and possibly were charged with a summary offense of gun loss. Are you feeling where this could go??(My fantasy could be your nightmare) Another attorney fee.
    Last edited by Dannytheman; February 25th, 2010 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Fixed numerical error!!
    NRA Training Counselor, Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Benefactor Member



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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannytheman View Post
    There are existing Straw purchasing laws on the books. We have over 1200 pages of Gun Laws in PA alone.
    I thought it was more like 120 pages?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: LOst and Stolen Information Site

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post
    I thought it was more like 120 pages?
    Fat fingered that, thanks for the heads up.. Fixed it..
    NRA Training Counselor, Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Benefactor Member



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