Which AK should I buy

[mojo]

This is not meant to be a definitive guide of any sort. This is meant for people new to AKs to get a better feel for some of the info that is out there and some of the differences. This is a "buyers guide" please start a separate thread for any discussions.

Why isn't this a definitive guide?

One, I don't have the time to put it together.
Two, there are whole sites devoted to that.
Three, times change and info can get stale.
Four, this is a gun forum so periodic discussion isn't a bad thing. Please try the search before posting just in case this question was just asked.

Before buying or asking which AK you should buy please review the following info. This will help the membership here give you a better answer.

What purpose is this purchase going to fill?
- Defensive
- Just shooting/plinking
- Collecting

Do you have other carbines in your collection?

Now some info on AKs.

There are 3 different types of AKs out on the market today.
- Pre-ban
- Post-ban
- Kit build

Pre-ban

These are collectible AKs and command a price premium. These are Pre-ban because they were imported into the U.S. prior to any AWBs. The guns are 100% foreign made, and most of the time they were made in the same factories as were F/A AKs. Some of the highest quality and rarest AKs fall into this category. Also, these are the only AKs some people can own who live in a state with a AWB.

Some examples:
- Mitchell Arms imported Yugoslavian
- Steyr Egyptian
- GSAD Chinese
- Polytech Chinse

Post-ban

There are two categories of post ban AKs.

- Semi Post-ban: These where "pre-ban" rifles that where imported into the US before the ban but where stuck in warehouses when the ban happened. What imported did where to add a thumbhole stock, grind off bayonet lugs, and either turned down the threads on the barrel or welded a muzzle nut on. This turned them into "sporting" rifles and they were allowed to released to consumers after they were re-marked. Although they are/were the same as true pre-bans, they do not command the same value as true pre-bans because they now have to follow 922(r)

examples:
Norinco Chinese Mak90
Intac Egyptian ARM/AML/etc

- Post-ban: This covers all other imported rifles after the ban. These rifles where imported in "sporting" configurations. That means no pistol grip, no bayonet lug, no barrel threads, and they can only accept single stack mags. What some importers do is to "de-ban" them. They open up the magwell to accept double stack mags, they put the typical AK stock on and add a pistol grip. In order to do this they have to replace certain foreign made parts with US made parts to comply with 922(r).

examples:
Romanian WASRs
Russian Saigas

Kit builds

These AKs where built from kits that were imported into the country. The kits came from F/A AKs that cut to ATF specs. Basically, the F/A receiver had to be cut in three specific places. Once the F/A gun is cut, the ATF views the parts as just parts and not a firearm. The kits are then built into semi-auto versions of what they originally were. These can be hit or miss. The quality of these guns are very dependent on the builder who built them. Some variations/countries of origin where only imported into the US as kit guns. So for a collector, kits are they only way to get certain variations.


Finally, lets talk about receivers.

Milled receivers: These where milled out of a solid block of steel. Milled receivers are therefore heavier and "sturdier" than the later style receivers which where made from stamped sheets of steel. There are two very easy ways to identify milled receivers. First, you will notice that there won't be any rivets in the front and back part of the side of the receiver. The rivets are not needed because there are no front or rear trunnions. The trunnions aren't needed because those parts are part of the receiver. Second, you will notice that there are lightning cuts that are milled into the receiver above the magwell. Milled AKs are the true AK-47. Stamped use a different designation. There are 3 different "versions"/"revisions" of milled receivers called types. Each was an improvement over the previous. The fact of the rifle having a fixed stock or underfolder doesn't related to the "type" of milled receiver. Below is a picture of 3 different Type III receivers.



Milled Type 1: These were never imported into the US. It was the original version that the Russians used. It was a combination of Milled parts and stamped parts.

Milled Type 2: These are 100% milled receivers. These are pretty rare and I believe that the only kits that were imported to use these were Russian. The Russian kits cost more than a lot of the AKs out there right now. No post-ban Type 2 AKs where imported that I know of. Some unique features are that the barrels are screwed into the receiver. The rear tangs are not milled into the receiver, and the lightening cuts above the magwell are not parallel to the bottom of the receiver.

Milled Type 3: These are the most popular milled receivers. There are "Pre-ban", "Post-ban", and Kits for the Type 3 receivers. There are Russian, Bulgarian, Polish, Yugoslavian and Hungarian Type 3 rifles. Some distinctive features are: Press and pin barrels, the rear tangs are part of the receiver, and the lightening cuts are parallel to the bottom of the receiver.

Stamped receivers: Due to better manufacturing, and wanting a cheaper way of building AK-47s, the Russians changed the receiver to a stamped version. AKs with a stamped receiver are known as AKM-47, the "m" standing for modified and where produced in 1960. Here the receivers are cut and stamped into a sheet of steel and then bent to form the receiver. With the new design, they now had to produce rear and front trunnions. The rear trunnion really just allows the stock to attach to the receiver. The front trunnion does a little more. It is what connects the barrel to the receiver. The barrel is pressed then pinned to the trunnion, then it is riveted onto the receiver. Stamped recievers also have "dimples" pressed into them above the magwell to increase their strength. Most stamped receivers are 1mm thick. There is a version (RPK) that is thicker 1.5mm and has a bulge where the front trunnion fits into the receiver. These receivers where built this way to be "sturdier" to handle the increase in volume of fire of the RPK rifles. The bulge in the receiver is accommodate the thicker front trunnion. Some countries use the RPK receiver on their standard AKMs, most noticeably the Yugoslavians. They used this receiver because they had gas blocks to allow them to fire grenades from their rifles.

Standard AKM receiver:
RPK receiver:


I hope that this helps the members here who are interested in AKs. Actually I guess that I should say AK clones, as a good bit of this info is for semi-auto AKs.

I hope to do a thread on the different countries.

If I missed anything, please let me know.

[nfafan]

Excellent info Mojo! As they say; feed a man a fish and you've got a cat on the back-porch, teach a man to fish and he stays out of the line at the Friday fish-frys...

Let me climb on and post some links. Helps to answer "what country made my Romy WASR" questions...


IMHO, the BEST AK forum on net, has subforums for all the major AK varients, PSLs, SKS, AND - a WASR22 subforum:

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/index.php


Another great AK forum, also has country-specific subforums:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=4


A Romy AK-specific site for background info on WUMs, CURs, SARs, ROMAKs, WASRs;

http://www.novarata.net/Linx310/model.htm


SAIGA site;

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?....saiga-12.com/


AK-derived VALMET site;

http://www.valmet.org/forum/


VALMET-derived Galil subforum;

http://www.uzi-world.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77


Best SKS site! Good for those "will this hi-cap mag work in my SKS" questions, with subforums for the major SKS varients - and an AK subforum too;

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php


Drag and PSL site;

http://www.dragunov.net/

1/17/2012 - another AK site...

http://allak47.com/

1/17/2012 - good CHICOM AK history sites...

http://chicom47.com/
http://akfortyseven.wordpress.com/category/chinese/

[beefcakeb0]

sticky worthy!

[RaisedByWolves]

Not this shit again.

.

[nfafan]

Not this shit again.

.

Ba-bum-bump!

[RocketFoot]

Some good info in this thread! I'm gonna pin it in hopes that more complete information will follow!

[ungawa]

Not being familiar with AKs, this sounds like great information for somebody considering collecting them.

Before buying or asking which AK you should buy please review the following info. This will help the membership here give you a better answer.

What purpose is this purchase going to fill?
- Defensive
- Just shooting/plinking
- Collecting

Do you have other carbines in your collection?

I see no guidance whatsoever in this thread for choosing an AK based on these considerations. And I think that choosing an AK based on these considerations is probably what most people are looking for.

Also, I don't understand all the pre-ban/post-ban stuff. Are you talking about GCA 1968? You mention pre-ban being available in AWB ban states, and nothing imported after the "ban." AWB is over, I would think imports would be restored now with the exception of GCA1968. Can you please clarify which "ban" you are talking about?

[mojo]

Before buying or asking which AK you should buy please review the following info. This will help the membership here give you a better answer.

What purpose is this purchase going to fill?
- Defensive
- Just shooting/plinking
- Collecting

Do you have other carbines in your collection?

I see no guidance whatsoever in this thread for choosing an AK based on these considerations. And I think that choosing an AK based on these considerations is probably what most people are looking for.

This thread was never meant to be a "be all, end all" on what to buy. The reason .. things change in the market place with regulations, and availability. I wanted to educate people on what some of the options are, so they can ask better questions. With better phrase questions and better educated OPers, the membership here can help them a lot better. There are just too many combos/variables to answer them all.

Also, I don't understand all the pre-ban/post-ban stuff. Are you talking about GCA 1968? You mention pre-ban being available in AWB ban states, and nothing imported after the "ban." AWB is over, I would think imports would be restored now with the exception of GCA1968. Can you please clarify which "ban" you are talking about?

Pre-ban/post-ban:
There were really to dates that people have to think about. The important one was the date that foreign semi-auto "military style" rifles were banned from importation. I forget the date right now. A lot of people think it had to do with the Federal AWB, which has expired.

I hope that I don't rehash a lot of stuff, but I didn't re-read my OP.

Pre-ban (importation ban): 100% foreign made rifle. It can have all the "evil" features such as pistol grip, bayonet lug, high cap mags, etc. You don't have to worry about 922(r) (restricted number of foreign parts).

Post-ban (importation ban): These are 100% foreign made, but have a "sporter" configuration. No pistol grip, bayonet lug, etc. You can convert them to the original configuration but you must comply with 922(r).

The important part for people who live in states that have AWBs, are that Pre-ban (AWB) rifles are grandfathered in. This is why a lot of people in NY want to buy pre-ban (AWB) AR lowers.

Prior to the Importation ban, Norinco imported a bunch of AKs (56-s). When the ban hit, all the 56-s that where in warehouses waiting to be cleared, had their bayonet lugs removed, Buttstocks + PG removed and replaced with a thumbhole stock, and remarked as MAK90s. When it first happened they even included the original stock in the box so you could swap them out. That is why from time to time you will see MAK90s with thumbhole stocks but have an underfolder receiver. They were caught in the ban.

Hope this helps.

[ungawa]

It doesn't help really. I don't think current import bans have anything to do with AWB, I think they are separate issues. Import bans were GCA 1968. I think ATF strengthened/enforced them with rulings in 1989 or 1990. And there were a few times Presidents singled things out, and ATF probably has a further track record of it as well. It's something I'm not very familiar with.

But I do believe AWB has nothing to do with current import bans. And, therefore, they are not the same issue at all. So I don't believe it's correct to say things were legal to import prior to AWB and are still no longer legal to import. I think most things imported in 1993 (AWB was 1994) are again legal to import today. And I think things that were illegal to import in 1989 were still illegal to import in 1993. So I think the distinction is very important, because you are telling people AWB was some sort of cutoff for imports that is still in effect. But I might have missed something because I'm not very familiar with it.

EDIT: OK, I see you've separated import ban and AWB ban now. Still didn't answer my question, but might keep people out of trouble OR let them know they can buy the same firearms imported in 1993 if they are imported now, for the most part.

[mojo]

It doesn't help really. I don't think current import bans have anything to do with AWB, I think they are separate issues. Import bans were GCA 1968. I think ATF strengthened/enforced them with rulings in 1989 or 1990. And there were a few times Presidents singled things out, and ATF probably has a further track record of it as well. It's something I'm not very familiar with.

But I do believe AWB has nothing to do with current import bans. And, therefore, they are not the same issue at all. So I don't believe it's correct to say things were legal to import prior to AWB and are still no longer legal to import. I think most things imported in 1993 (AWB was 1994) are again legal to import today. And I think things that were illegal to import in 1989 were still illegal to import in 1993. So I think the distinction is very important, because you are telling people AWB was some sort of cutoff for imports that is still in effect. But I might have missed something because I'm not very familiar with it.

EDIT: OK, I see you've separated import ban and AWB ban now. Still didn't answer my question, but might keep people out of trouble OR let them know they can buy the same firearms imported in 1993 if they are imported now, for the most part.

Guns that were imported prior to the importation ban can not be imported anymore, but they can be owned/bought/sold. Is that what you mean by the last sentence?

Maybe I'm just getting confused ... I will re-read everything after the weekend when I actually have time to think better.

edit: Just to clarify one thing. New foreign made AKs with pistol grips, bayonet lugs, high cap mags, etc can not be imported at all. Actually, they don't have to be new. No AKs in the "evil" config can be imported. This is why WASRs, and SAIGAs come into the country the way they are.

Only two types of AKs can be imported currently:
1) Sporter config AKs (WASRs and SAIGAs)
2) Kits with receiver and barrels cut up according to ATF standards