Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Before buying or asking which AK you should buy please review the following info. This will help the membership here give you a better answer.

    What purpose is this purchase going to fill?
    - Defensive
    - Just shooting/plinking
    - Collecting

    Do you have other carbines in your collection?
    I see no guidance whatsoever in this thread for choosing an AK based on these considerations. And I think that choosing an AK based on these considerations is probably what most people are looking for.
    This thread was never meant to be a "be all, end all" on what to buy. The reason .. things change in the market place with regulations, and availability. I wanted to educate people on what some of the options are, so they can ask better questions. With better phrase questions and better educated OPers, the membership here can help them a lot better. There are just too many combos/variables to answer them all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Also, I don't understand all the pre-ban/post-ban stuff. Are you talking about GCA 1968? You mention pre-ban being available in AWB ban states, and nothing imported after the "ban." AWB is over, I would think imports would be restored now with the exception of GCA1968. Can you please clarify which "ban" you are talking about?
    Pre-ban/post-ban:
    There were really to dates that people have to think about. The important one was the date that foreign semi-auto "military style" rifles were banned from importation. I forget the date right now. A lot of people think it had to do with the Federal AWB, which has expired.

    I hope that I don't rehash a lot of stuff, but I didn't re-read my OP.

    Pre-ban (importation ban): 100% foreign made rifle. It can have all the "evil" features such as pistol grip, bayonet lug, high cap mags, etc. You don't have to worry about 922(r) (restricted number of foreign parts).

    Post-ban (importation ban): These are 100% foreign made, but have a "sporter" configuration. No pistol grip, bayonet lug, etc. You can convert them to the original configuration but you must comply with 922(r).

    The important part for people who live in states that have AWBs, are that Pre-ban (AWB) rifles are grandfathered in. This is why a lot of people in NY want to buy pre-ban (AWB) AR lowers.

    Prior to the Importation ban, Norinco imported a bunch of AKs (56-s). When the ban hit, all the 56-s that where in warehouses waiting to be cleared, had their bayonet lugs removed, Buttstocks + PG removed and replaced with a thumbhole stock, and remarked as MAK90s. When it first happened they even included the original stock in the box so you could swap them out. That is why from time to time you will see MAK90s with thumbhole stocks but have an underfolder receiver. They were caught in the ban.

    Hope this helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    If the police could confiscate all of your guns and ammo using just one van, then you didn't own enough guns or ammo.
    WTB - NDS3 or NDS1 receiver FTF

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    It doesn't help really. I don't think current import bans have anything to do with AWB, I think they are separate issues. Import bans were GCA 1968. I think ATF strengthened/enforced them with rulings in 1989 or 1990. And there were a few times Presidents singled things out, and ATF probably has a further track record of it as well. It's something I'm not very familiar with.

    But I do believe AWB has nothing to do with current import bans. And, therefore, they are not the same issue at all. So I don't believe it's correct to say things were legal to import prior to AWB and are still no longer legal to import. I think most things imported in 1993 (AWB was 1994) are again legal to import today. And I think things that were illegal to import in 1989 were still illegal to import in 1993. So I think the distinction is very important, because you are telling people AWB was some sort of cutoff for imports that is still in effect. But I might have missed something because I'm not very familiar with it.

    EDIT: OK, I see you've separated import ban and AWB ban now. Still didn't answer my question, but might keep people out of trouble OR let them know they can buy the same firearms imported in 1993 if they are imported now, for the most part.
    Last edited by ungawa; June 3rd, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    It doesn't help really. I don't think current import bans have anything to do with AWB, I think they are separate issues. Import bans were GCA 1968. I think ATF strengthened/enforced them with rulings in 1989 or 1990. And there were a few times Presidents singled things out, and ATF probably has a further track record of it as well. It's something I'm not very familiar with.

    But I do believe AWB has nothing to do with current import bans. And, therefore, they are not the same issue at all. So I don't believe it's correct to say things were legal to import prior to AWB and are still no longer legal to import. I think most things imported in 1993 (AWB was 1994) are again legal to import today. And I think things that were illegal to import in 1989 were still illegal to import in 1993. So I think the distinction is very important, because you are telling people AWB was some sort of cutoff for imports that is still in effect. But I might have missed something because I'm not very familiar with it.

    EDIT: OK, I see you've separated import ban and AWB ban now. Still didn't answer my question, but might keep people out of trouble OR let them know they can buy the same firearms imported in 1993 if they are imported now, for the most part.
    Guns that were imported prior to the importation ban can not be imported anymore, but they can be owned/bought/sold. Is that what you mean by the last sentence?

    Maybe I'm just getting confused ... I will re-read everything after the weekend when I actually have time to think better.

    edit: Just to clarify one thing. New foreign made AKs with pistol grips, bayonet lugs, high cap mags, etc can not be imported at all. Actually, they don't have to be new. No AKs in the "evil" config can be imported. This is why WASRs, and SAIGAs come into the country the way they are.

    Only two types of AKs can be imported currently:
    1) Sporter config AKs (WASRs and SAIGAs)
    2) Kits with receiver and barrels cut up according to ATF standards
    Last edited by mojo; June 3rd, 2010 at 07:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    If the police could confiscate all of your guns and ammo using just one van, then you didn't own enough guns or ammo.
    WTB - NDS3 or NDS1 receiver FTF

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    I used to live in Philly years ago. Back in 1984 I bought a Kassner Hungarian AKM underfolder 7.62 x 39(Pre-ban). I moved to New Jersey and let the gun sit for years not knowing how the politics was going to affect my "legal" ownership. I would be damned if I was going to hand it over to someone because some politician some where said it was now illegal. I think it is now worth some bucks. I bought it originally for $200 and change. I have heard of them changing hands for $1700+. I want to put a side mount scope plate on it because the cover mount systems suck. The only problem is if I put the side mount plate on my stamped receiver, I will not be able to close the underfolder stock. Not that I see a big need for the underfolder. In fact, I would much rather use the PSO 8x scope I have as well as my red dot from my AR on the side mount platform more than I would use the advantage of the underfolder stock. I don't want to destroy the value of the weapon by installing the scope. I have toyed with the idea of machining the underfolder stock to accomodate both the underfolder and the side mount plate but I am waiting to hear from anyone out there if they have had such a dilemma and what they have done. Do I wreck the value if I punch three holes in the receiver and put on the plate? Do I not worry about the future and just do what I want to do to enjoy the gun my way. Hell, I can buy a new AK for $400 and use the side mount on that but I love that gun. I routinely outshoot my AR friends with it. If and when the fundamental islamists come walking down my street talking jihad, I know which weapon I am reaching for!

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Also, I don't understand all the pre-ban/post-ban stuff. Are you talking about GCA 1968? You mention pre-ban being available in AWB ban states, and nothing imported after the "ban." AWB is over, I would think imports would be restored now with the exception of GCA1968. Can you please clarify which "ban" you are talking about?
    Let me see if I can clear this up.

    The "ban" in question is not the GCA1968 but it's very much related. Hope the quote below from senate.gov's site clears this up.

    Quote Originally Posted by senate.gov
    The 1968 Gun Control Act created a uniform standard for all imported firearms -- the so called "sporting purposes" standard. Specifically, the act states that imported firearms must "be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms . . ."

    Shortly after passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) commissioned a panel to provide guidelines for implementation of the "sporting purposes" test. According to the Congressional Research Service, the only controversy of the time was whether the easily concealed, inexpensive, often low-quality "Saturday Night Special" fit the "sporting purposes" mandate. The panel focused on handgun regulations and did not propose criteria for evaluating rifles and shotguns.

    The 1968 Gun Control Act states specifically that the act had no intention of "plac[ing] any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, or use of firearms appropriate to the purpose of hunting, trapshooting, target shooting, personal protection, or any other lawful activity . . ." It was not until 1984 that this open-ended definition was more narrowly applied to only certain sporting activities, such as hunting and organized marksmanship.

    In 1984, the "sporting purposes" test was specifically applied to rifles and shotguns. The firearm in question was a South African riot control shotgun. The importer, pursuant to the statute requirements, indicated that the weapon fit "sporting purposes" due to its "suitability for police/combat style competitions." ATF denied the license.

    Two years later, a second shotgun application was denied due to the firearm not being "generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to a sporting purpose." Here, ATF clarified that firearms must attain "general recognition as having a sporting purpose" and events must attain "general recognition as being a sport."

    The criteria were last modified in 1989. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was ordered to suspend importation of 43 imported semi-automatic firearms until a study was completed pertaining to their eligibility for importation under the "sporting use" criteria. Thereafter, the review concluded that not one of the 43 firearms was of sporting use as defined by the Import Restriction section in the 1968 Gun Control Act [18 USC 925(d)(3)].
    The confusion comes when some gun dealers are marketing pre-'94 (Federal AWB) guns as "pre-bans". Although the federal AWB has expired, some states still have one (NY and CA for example). From my understanding, since I don't/haven't lived in those states, is that pre-94 guns are grandfathered in. So people in those states place a higher value on those guns. For us who live in free(er) states, there is no difference between a pre-'94 and a post-'94 gun.

    As stated before, true pre-ban ('89) guns are 100% foreign made which makes them more desirable to collectors plus the fact that there is a limited supply of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    If the police could confiscate all of your guns and ammo using just one van, then you didn't own enough guns or ammo.
    WTB - NDS3 or NDS1 receiver FTF

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    It doesn't help really. I don't think current import bans have anything to do with AWB, I think they are separate issues. Import bans were GCA 1968. I think ATF strengthened/enforced them with rulings in 1989 or 1990. And there were a few times Presidents singled things out, and ATF probably has a further track record of it as well. It's something I'm not very familiar with.

    But I do believe AWB has nothing to do with current import bans. And, therefore, they are not the same issue at all. So I don't believe it's correct to say things were legal to import prior to AWB and are still no longer legal to import. I think most things imported in 1993 (AWB was 1994) are again legal to import today. And I think things that were illegal to import in 1989 were still illegal to import in 1993. So I think the distinction is very important, because you are telling people AWB was some sort of cutoff for imports that is still in effect. But I might have missed something because I'm not very familiar with it.

    EDIT: OK, I see you've separated import ban and AWB ban now. Still didn't answer my question, but might keep people out of trouble OR let them know they can buy the same firearms imported in 1993 if they are imported now, for the most part.
    True. Parts of the original GCA of 68 were even supported by the NRA and industry as it stopped the flow of cheap, foreign-made handguns into the USA. That's why many PPK clones were assembled in the USA and not imported directly. This ended the flow of NFA and the introduction of "dealer samples" and "amnesty guns".
    In 86 the no-new-NFA clause was added and now you have pre-samples and post-samples along with pre-86-transferables.

    The "sporting purpose" was later re-interpreted by ATF in 1989 under sect 922 to include many of the EBRs that resembled what the drug lords supposedly used and the Stockton shooter; hi-cap-capable, and/or with folding stocks, PGs, bayo lugs, threaded barrel.
    Domestic guns were exempt, but some mfgs straddled the fence - such as Colt, with their off again on again AR production.

    Recognizing that domestic bayo lugs were no safer than foreign bayo lugs, we had the 94 AWB and another interpretation which ensnared domestic companies with a few exceptions.

    So, the sunset of the 94 AWB has no bearing on 922 and the 89-banned foreign EBRs, just affected domestic EBRs. Thus - we have the domestic parts content needed in "foreign AKs" like WASRs and SAIGAs, or the many parts-AKs, et al - and the new production domestic EBRs like the MSAR "AUGs".

    Edit: Unless you absolutely must have a genuine IMI Galil or Mitchell Yugo or AUG or H&K91; there are the parts guns and domestic new guns that have hit the market as very credible substitutes. Hell, even the Wiselite-for-Century Sterling Mk6 carbine - a gun I NEVER would have imagined to be made. And at prices that are not all that shabby either.
    Last edited by nfafan; June 17th, 2010 at 09:47 PM.
    All of my guns are lubed with BACON GREASE.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    this is a buyers help guide only, any other topics, take it elsewhere.

    OT thread crap deleted
    "Oderint Dum Metuant" - BMFH

    "Tact is for people not witty enough to use sarcasm"

    Note: any whingeing crazy that hits my PM inbox will be deleted without reply

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Thanks Mojo.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Guys I'm considering buying an AK74. I'm not sure which to get though as there are so many and I don't want a CIA. I have recently sold a WASR 10/63 and would like to upgrade to a better version of the 74 and would like to be in the $600 range for a complete rifle. I would like some websites that I can buy from and also some LGS that may have some in stock. I would like to know if anyone knows about these http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct911.aspx
    Last edited by *Klutch*; October 17th, 2010 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Which AK should I buy

    Im not farmillar with AA's stuff, but judging by the specs and the price it looks like a solid deal.


    .

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