Arrest by Warrant - What should LEOs and CC or OC citizen do?

[462-SERV]

What do you recommend that LEOs and citizens do to handle legal but disputed "arrests by warrant" of citizens who are armed in a matnner that is safest and most righteous for both parties? On view arrests are more complicated lets focus on warants please.

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I fully support 2A rights, but there are certain situations when people should expect to cooperate with LEOs and disarm rather than insisting on wrestling or shooting it out if they think they are innocent and the LEOs are violating their rights.

I met more than one person on this board FTF who said that they would _never_ disarm voluntarily because _they_ are not criminals and only bad guys should be disarmed or harrassed by law enforcement.

I asked more than a few acquaintances what they would do if uniformed officers tried to arrest them on a valid warrant while they were carrying. I also asked what would make the arrest go smoothest and safest for everyone.

Surprisingly to me a small number of people said they would not cooperate if they felt the warrant was improperly issued or valid but they felt they were innocent, even if they were facing multiple uniforms with guns drawn and a judge signed paper in their hands. Some of this has to be bravado or funning but I worry. I hope people are just pulling my leg. It is possible that they are responding to problems with official abuse and corruption, but have not said so directly.

I understand why it may be important to object to what you may view as illegal actions by law enforcement, but there is a difference between verbally stating your opposition and fighting for or reaching for a gun and continuing to actively resist.

I am wondering what actually happens when someone with this active resistance noncompliance strategy runs into LEOs executing a valid arrest warrant (for parking tickets or harassment) or an emergency PFA with an order to vacate their home and instructions for the LEOs to take temporary possession of their firearms.

When someone says this without pointing a gun at me my first thought would be to find cover/concealment, call for backup, then call the judge, and control the scene and loudly read the warrant to the subject again and ask them why they refused to cooperate on such a minor matter over and over until they either have vented and consented and been arrested or backup arrives.

If they make me fear imminent death or serious bodily injury, I will do what I should/must do to protect myself or others. I would rather avoid escalations and/or seeing aggravated assualt charges or worse laid on someone who is mistakenly convinced they don't need to cooperate and can point guns at LEOs with impugnity.

There have to be some good ideas for de escalation out there. Obviously communication and understanding have a big role. Navies have well understood techniques permitting safe close proximity saber rattling manuevers by ships at sea that permit expression but avoid shooting. What do you recommend we do to keep everyone safer in the case of arrests by warrant?

Aloha

[steamtownwelder]

This happened to me 2 weeks ago. Jerkoff couldn't get my 1911 out of the holster, when I finally instructed him to simply pull a bit harder he couldn't manage to figure out the thumb safety. I have no faith in any officer and a signed piece of paper doesn't stop me from getting shot in the ass by an idiot that doesn't know his way around the most prolific handgun in America. Typical. All of the cop ball swingers on this forum obviously haven't had many dealings with the boys in blue.

[LittleRedToyota]

What do you recommend we do to keep everyone safer in the case of arrests by warrant?

i suggest, if possible, the officer(s) somehow allow the person to actually see and read the warrant. (it would be nice if there were a number people could call to verify the warrant...will 911 do that?)

assuming the warrant appears to actually have been issued by a judge, i then suggest the person cooperate and live to fight another day.

i will never condemn an innocent man for fighting to prevent being wrongly arrested, personally. however, i do think going that route will generally not be in the innocent man's best interests, and, so, making that choice will only be shooting himself in the foot (and probably causing someone else to shoot him COM. ).

ETA: one thing that would really cut down on this even being a problem is for judges, DAs, and police officers to actually be held accountable when they request or issue BS warrants. if that happened, fewer BS warrants would be issued, so fewer innocent people would be targeted, so the entire situation could generally be more often avoided.

[gold cup abuser]

Just a few random thoughs on this one.....

If the police have obtained a VALID arrest warrant on you, then your only opton is to comply with the arresting officer. As I recall there is no defense in PA law allowing you to legally resist an officer if he is affecting an arrest, even if later proven that the arrest was illegal/invalid.

Put your hands in the air so they can be seen by the officer and SHUT UP.

If you are armed, then the officer will find it duing a pat down, if you want to inform the officer of the fact you are armed before he begins his detention and pat down, do not be suprised if you are assaulted or more by the arresting officer.

Now, this is in context of a normal peaceful civil society where no marshal law has been declared, or the police are now openly going after legally armed citizens.

If the laws of the commonwealth or the US have been shredded then its everyone for themselves on how they will react in the face of official tyranny.

If you have been arrested under civil terms then I would NOT recommend resistance of any kind as it will give the arresting officer no other chocie but to shoot you first before you shoot him/her.

on a side note just what did you do to get all of this love and attention directed at you????

just sayin........

[LittleRedToyota]

on a side note just what did you do to get all of this love and attention directed at you????

if i read it correctly, he is on the serving end, rather than the served end, of the warrant.

[MikePrekopa]

If I were faced with being armed and being stopped on a valid warrant, First I would ask to read the warrant. If the officer asked to disarm me, I would comply. I would however ask if he were familiar with my firearm, and walk him through securing it step my step. As many have said before, some LEO's go to the range as much as possible, but some only touch their pistol twice a year when they qualify.

I get the whole political activism, your not taking my rights away, but I think being nice and complying will go a long way in your favor.

[-JD-]

In PA, it is NOT legal to resist ANY arrest by LEOs using force. Sucks, but it is what it is.

[462-SERV]

if i read it correctly, he is on the serving end, rather than the served end, of the warrant.

YUP
PRO 2A Peace Officer

I hand out lots of flyers but
will arrest, search, disarm and secure both the person and their firearm incident to arrest by warrant because it is the way the laws work and it is safest.

I teach firearms safety so securing most weapons safely is not the problem. Making sure both parties cooperate to handle the arrest safely is in everyones interest. If people are innocent they should sort it out with the courts not resist arrest.

I want to discuss protocols for safely disarming people when doing so is justified .

[CHEMICAL]

If people are innocent they should sort it out with the courts not resist arrest.

I agree about not resisting arrest, but a lot of people do not simply have the resources or finances to "sort it out in court" if it happens to be a wrongful arrest, even if they may get compensated later.

[LittleRedToyota]

I want to discuss protocols for safely disarming people when doing so is justified .

ok...i will stick to that.

i still think step number 1 of the protocol should be, if possible, to allow the person to validate the warrant. the possibility of a police impersonator or a real police officer acting with malice and without a valid warrant may not register on your radar, but it does on ours.

beyond that, us non-LEOs would prefer to make the weapon safe and hand it to you or put it on the ground ourselves. but i think you would understandably not like that idea in many cases.

however, if you can safely do so (for example, from behind cover, though i'm still not sure how often you could really safely do so), i think allowing the person to disarm themselves should be the next step in the protocol.

but i assume that in most cases allowing the person to handle their own weapon will not be good tactics. the only other option is for an officer to disarm them.

so, i think the real thing is just to make sure police departments include safe gun handling in their training...and really emphasize and practice it, not just pay lip service to it.

teach them about various types of holsters and various types of guns...how they work and how to make them safe.

teach them it is OK to ask the person how the holster or gun works.

but most of all, really drill into them the basic rules of safe firearm handling and have severe consequences for violating them. if an officer violates any of the fundamental rules while disarming someone who is not resisting, two weeks unpaid suspension at a minimum.

whatever protocol you come up with, there does have to be serious ramifications for violating it...or it will not be followed.

hope that is useful.