Returns and refund policies

[CuriousandSuspicious]

All the shop does is log the gun (back) into their sales "bound book".

Just like when they acquired it the first time.

Thank you very much for that input. It will be helpful to me.

[CuriousandSuspicious]

One problem is...now it's a "used gun" and worth less on the retail market. Even if the OP sold it on PAFOA's classifieds today, he's probably get 50% to 75% of what he paid for it.
So, the question to be asked is why does he want to return it? And if he does, does he expect full retail price....because he's unlikely to get that.

1) The issue is currently not about the denial of a refund but about the way in which the denial was handled. They took advantage of my admitted ignorance and stated numerous lies and, when politely asked to clarify or explain the implausible statements, had me removed from the location and told I was not permitted to re-enter; only to phone.

2) I purchased it as a used weapon. The cost was only $200. It has never been removed from the case. I attempted the return three days later because the person with whom I live was immensely disturbed by the notion of having it in the house. It was purchased on Valentine's Day.

3) The store is reputable though I have found numerous complaints about their ethics in addition to a criminal past. They are probably more vastly stocked than most facilities in the state.

4) Their receipt states nothing about it being non-refundable and, in fact, specifies details regarding store credits being given for sale merchandise and no cash refunds given for purchases made with gift cards. The salesperson spent much time trying to sell their other services but never told me their return policy nor is it posted anywhere as required by our Attorney General.

I don't appreciate being lied to so overtly and unnecessarily- four or five times within five minutes. That they were so rude and actually abusive is sufficient reason for me to take it to whatever level is available to me.

[Xringshooter]

One problem is...now it's a "used gun" and worth less on the retail market. Even if the OP sold it on PAFOA's classifieds today, he's probably get 50% to 75% of what he paid for it.

No that's not exactly true. If the gun has not been fired and the owner has the original box and paperwork, it can still be advertised/sold as ANIB (as new in box) and the seller is not committing any fraud. That said, he may not get the MSRP or even what he paid for it but he wouldn't lose that much money unless it was something that really didn't appeal to anyone other than a very small group.

Let's use an example:
Person buys a new Ruger GP100 from a dealer. He fills out the paperwork and walks out the door with it. He never fires it. A week later he goes back to the same dealer, relays a story about an incident that happened and he needs to return the gun and get his money back. Let's say the dealer is a big softy (and he knows that he can sell the gun easily) and gives him his money back, less a bit of a restock fee. All the paperwork from Ruger is there, it is obvious that the gun has not been fired. The dealer then enters it into his book and puts it back in the showcase. Is he going to sell it as a used gun? Nope, the sales tag is probably going to say "New" (honestly should say AS NEW, never fired). However, if the tag said "New", most people would be hard pressed to prove the gun had been "bought and owned" by someone else. It's not like driving a new car off the lot.

Another example, a 35 year old collector buys a new gun from a dealer and takes it home, puts a zip tie around the hammer and through the trigger guard to insure that it is not fired, annotates what he did in his collectors book (and serious collectors will do this to show a complete paper trail) and stores it in his safe, only taking it out to admire it and wipe it down periodically. It stays in his safe until he is 89 years old and has an auction to sell his stuff to move into a nursing home. According to the gun pricing books I have, they all would consider this gun as a 100% or NIB or ANIB gun (depending on which book you consult) as it can be proved that it has never been fired. It will not lose any value at all. Just because he bought it and took it home does not mean that it is a used gun (it is a used gun as to the fact that it has been sold at retail).

Edit reason: did some more research later, (sorry should have done it before posting) and found some additional information so I needed to edit my responses.

[GunLawyer001]

. . .

4) Their receipt states nothing about it being non-refundable and, in fact, specifies details regarding store credits being given for sale merchandise and no cash refunds given for purchases made with gift cards. The salesperson spent much time trying to sell their other services but never told me their return policy nor is it posted anywhere as required by our Attorney General.

I don't appreciate being lied to so overtly and unnecessarily- four or five times within five minutes. That they were so rude and actually abusive is sufficient reason for me to take it to whatever level is available to me.

When you form a contract to purchase anything, there's no assumption that you're free to back out later. They offer to sell, you offer to buy, you pay money, they hand you the product. It's done. They are not obligated to form a new contract to buy your used gun, unless they told you they would, as part of the initial contract.

FFL's are not in the business of renting guns, they sell guns (some ranges rent guns for on-site use, but that's very different). Changing your mind doesn't mean the contract for sale can be undone.

If I sold guns, I'd be very careful with any gun that was out of my control for a few days. Despite the media whining, sellers of guns CAN be sued successfully for defective or tampered-with firearms. So the smart dealer won't just take in a used gun and stick it on his shelf, he'll have a gunsmith look it over for worn or defective parts.

I don't see that you have any legal recourse for being "lied to". People lie every day, and it's not fraud unless it's an inducement to a new contract. I'll lie to panhandlers and say that I don't have any money on me; can they sue me?

If they lied and said that state law prohibits refunds on firearms, instead of saying that they just don't give refunds on firearms, what's your harm? In either case, you got the gun you paid for, and they declined to buy it back.

[GunLawyer001]

No that's not exactly true. If the gun has not been fired and the owner has the original box and paperwork, it can still be advertised/sold as NIB (new in box) and the seller is not committing any fraud. . . .

I disagree: "NIB" means "not previously sold at retail", not "probably never fired".

NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION STANDARDS OF CONDITION OF MODERN FIREARMS

NEW: Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production.
PERFECT: In new condition in every respect; sometimes referred to as mint.
EXCELLENT: New condition, used very little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect. (except at muzzle or sharp edges)
VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches.
GOOD: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.
FAIR: In safe working condition, but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments that should be indicated in advertisement; no rust, but may have corrosion pits that do not render the gun unsafe or inoperable.
POOR: Badly worn, rusty and battered, perhaps requiring major adjustment or repairs to place in operating condition.

[West Chester]

All the shop does is log the gun (back) into their sales "bound book".

Just like when they acquired it the first time.

So then how does the PA State Police have their illegal sales database?

Once a shop gets you to fill out the carbon copy forms does one copy also get mailed out to the PSP?

[CuriousandSuspicious]

Fascinating that you also state that it unlike a vehicle being driven from the lot. She used that as an example and said they are identical. I insisted they are not, as when I purchase a vehicle, it comes with paperwork that clearly states their policies. Further, I did not "drive" this anywhere. I never removed it from the package.

Thank you.

I will be "permitted" to call the store owner tomorrow. I have been told that my entry in the store will constitute trespassing.

I also intend to use my credit card company to dispute this as well.

I believe that the extensive information on the receipt regarding store credit only for sale merchandise and no cash refund for gift card use is a strong point. It should state right there that their policy is to refuse returns on handgun purchases, no?

[CuriousandSuspicious]

No, I have no recourse for their lying. My concern was that I am unprotected against their stating that when I was there, signs were posted stating that handguns are not returnable. I politely requested a written statement confirming that on that date, at that time, no such signage was posted an I was refused. This leads me to reasonable concern. There is no reason that I can envision to refuse this UNLESS there exists the intent to deceive.

What you are NOT addressing is that our Attorney General clearly states on his website that all retails ARE required to post their return policy. This is the violation about which I surely have recourse unless they all sign affidavits stating that it is posted, which I anticipate is exactly what they will allow.

When my polite requests for something in writing was refused and when my requests for an explanation for their reluctance, I attempted to photograph the walls to demonstrate the absence of signage. THAT is what caused their frantic response and my official removal from their premises.

[CuriousandSuspicious]

Please be reminded that, in this case, I purchased a weapon that was sold to me as "used."

[wellcraft]

[QUOTE

2) I purchased it as a used weapon. The cost was only $200. It has never been removed from the case. I attempted the return three days later because the person with whom I live was immensely disturbed by the notion of having it in the house. It was purchased on Valentine's Day.


4) Their receipt states nothing about it being non-refundable and, in fact, specifies details regarding store credits being given for sale merchandise and no cash refunds given for purchases made with gift cards. The salesperson spent much time trying to sell their other services but never told me their return policy nor is it posted anywhere as required by our Attorney General.

.[/QUOTE]

to be perfectly honest i think you're way out of line trying to return a firearm because your wife/girlfriend won't allow you to have it in the house. if you needed permission you should have asked first prior to buying the firearm. every gunshop that i frequent does not refund money on new firearms and especially not used firearms. most stores have their policey posted somewhere in the store but i don't believe it's a legal requirement for them to post their return policy. if i owned a shop and you tried to return a used firearm because your significant other won't allow you to have it you'd be shit out of luck.

if you purchased a new/used car and drove it off the lot, turned around and drove it right back on the lot and tried to return it you wouldn't get your money back. try returning software, DVD's or music CD's after you walk out of the store and see if you get your money back. while many of the large chain stores like wal-mart have liberal return policies on many of the products they sell the same can't be said for for small businesses like gunshops.