My letter and responses it generated

[jerkin]

Is it any wonder that Philly is in the shape it is with a bunch of idiots like these guys registered to vote?

[twoeggsup]

That Zimmerman character is really special.

He must be a troll, no one could be that stupid...
Ooop....
Silly me, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever said

[jonnyec]

Well, looks like I really started something.
Below is the second reponse I receieved from one of the respondents after I sent him my reply email which was in my OP:


I'm sorry but your statement: "Again, I agree, leaving a gun unattended in a vehicle is incredibly stupid; but, despite your contention, it's not illegal", is incorrect.
It is against the law to leave it anywhere outside of your personal dwelling, unattended. It is also against the law to carry a weapon and not have your permit on you. I'm sorry but it is uninformed people such as yourself, who make incorrect statements which does a disservice to those who actually know and understand the law. In the future, try to know the facts of what you're talking about before "putting pen to paper".


Anyone have a suggestion on a response, since I have not yet written him back? I'm thinking I'll cite the actual law in the UFA that he mentions that says it is illegal to leave your gun in your vehicle. Oh wait ... I don't think I can. As far as I know, it doesn't exist. Any help out there with our legal/statute informed folks? Thanks for the feedback.
J.

[twoeggsup]

... Anyone have a suggestion on a response, since I have not yet written him back? I'm thinking I'll cite the actual law in the UFA that he mentions that says it is illegal to leave your gun in your vehicle. Oh wait ... I don't think I can. As far as I know, it doesn't exist. Any help out there with our legal/statute informed folks? Thanks for the feedback.
J.

Try something like this:
I have to disagree. Citation of law please instead of roll your own wish it were laws please.
It is not illegal to leave a gun in a car and certainly not a locked car.

While you're looking for a law that does not exist, how about checking out Official Oppression, 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5301. Then examine the actions of the Philly PD and DA.

[jonnyec]

twoeggsup ... oh, I like that! Alright, I'm totally stealing it! Thanks for statute reference.
However, with folks like this, I somehow get the feeling that even if I did cite a statute, it wouldn't make a difference. People these days have their minds made up. If they learn they're wrong about something, they either get in denial, or all huffy and walk away.
Still, I guess all we can do is educate the uneducated. Thanks!!

Oh, and is gunlawer out there anywhere? I'm sure Phil could weigh in on this.

[Adam-12]

Anyone have a suggestion on a response, since I have not yet written him back?

How about something like this?

It's ironic that you mention "trying to know the facts of what you're talking about." The laws governing possession, transfer and carrying of firearms in Pennsylvania are all found in Title 18 of the Pennsylvania consolidated statutes, in the following sections: §908; §912; §913; §6105; §6106; §6108; §6109; §6110; §6111; §6115; §6121; and §6122. If you read each of these sections carefully, you will find that each of your statements is wrong.

In particular, you will discover that no license is ever required to carry a handgun openly on foot, except in Philadelphia. You will also discover that there are no statutes whatsoever that specify where or how a firearm may be left, in or out of your home. No statutes prohibit "leaving a firearm unattended." You can easily confirm this by reading the statutes referenced above, and you are free to read Title 18 in its entirety as well.

The only criminal charges that could result from "leaving a firearm unattended" would involve negligence. For example, if your firearm is involved in a death, and a prosecutor and jury determine that you acted in a "reckless or grossly negligent manner," then you could be convicted of involuntary manslaughter under § 2504. If no death results, you might be charged with reckless endangerment under § 2705. For either of these charges to apply, you must act in a "reckless or grossly negligent manner." Leaving your firearm on a bathroom sink might qualify as "reckless or grossly negligent," but storing it away from sight, in a locked container or glove compartment, inside a locked vehicle, would distinctly not qualify as reckless or grossly negligent.

[Smalls]

Nicely written Adam. Rep Sent.

To the OP: Don't let the Anti push you around. Keep going with this!

[jonnyec]

Hey all!
Thanks so much for the support, and great input. Here's the most recent email I sent to the gentleman. Haven't yet gotten a response. Let me know how you think this reads.
J.


Hi ---,
Thanks again for responding. While of course I aim to keep things civil, with all due respect, I must disagree.
I reviewed the state's Uniform Firearms Act, and could not find a statute where it says it's against the law to leave a firearm inside a vehicle, locked or not. However, I'll state again, I totally disagree with leaving a gun in a car, locked or not. It's just plain stupid.
Of course if you can locate the specific law that backs your claim, please forward it along with citations ...
What I did find was the following:
First, which is something that goes back to the original intent of my letter to the Inquirer, I still believe it is unlawful for the police to revoke the license of someone who has had a firearm stolen from his/her vehicle. This is why ....

(i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail to the individual whose license is revoked, and, at that time, notice shall also be provided to the Pennsylvania State Police by electronic means, including e-mail or facsimile transmission, that the license is no longer valid. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

(The above information is cotained within the UFA: § 6109. Licenses. (a) Purpose of license.)
The part I bolded, which talks about revocation, mentions subsection (e) (1), which reads as follows):

(e) Issuance of license.-- (1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following: (i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety. (ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act. (iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105. (iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act. (v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution. (vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug. (vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard. (viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons). (ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions). (x) An alien who is illegally in the United States. (xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions. (xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles). (xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105. (xiv) An individual who is prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm under the statutes of the United States.

(Notice I bolded the part about having a gun in a vehicle; just wanted to address your comments that said a license only relates to carrying on foot, which, clearly, is a misrepresentation on your part).
But my real point was nowhere does it say having your gun stolen from your car is grounds for license revocation.

Lastly, your most recent reponse said it's illegal to carry a weapon without having your "permit on your." First, not to nitpick, but it's not a "permit," it's called a "License to Carry Firearms" (LTCF).
Secondly, I came across this statute:

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception. (a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

The part I bolded could make for good argument that if picked up by the cops for not having your license while carrying, you could get away with showing it at the time of your preliminary hearing. Sort of like how it works if you're caught driving without your actual drivers license on you; I believe you're able to show it at the time of hearing, although this I'm not totally certain of, and besides, it's a topic for another time.
If you come across that UFA statute that says leaving a gun in a vehicle is illegal, PLEASE, forward it along. I'll admit when I'm wrong about something, and civil discourse is always a good thing in my mind.
John

[unloved]

The Philadelphia Police Department's Gun Permits Unit cannot revoke your LTCF for a non-violation that isn't related to character.

PPD's GPU can't legitimately revoke a LTCF for any reason based on character in general. Only if the character and reputation of the person whose license is being revoked are such that the person is likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.

[Emptymag]

Stop throwing him a bone with that "leaving a gun in a car is stupid" bullshit.

It may be stupid to you to leave a gun in a car, and I don't like the idea either, but there is no reason to "give a little" to appease an anti. Your "argument" with this moron isn't/shouldn't be based upon your opinions, so stick to the facts and stop conceding defeat by "giving" him something to feel he's "right" about, just so he'll hear you out.