Disturbing Encounter While Attempting To Check Firearm At Montco Courthouse

[peaceful99]

About a year ago, I went to the Allegheny County court house on business unrelated to firearms and none on my person. I went through the metal detector and set it off, mostly due to keys and pocket change. They asked me to empty my pockets a place the contents in a basket. I also had a small paper bag which I placed on the table by the deputies. I emptied my pockets, lots of change, keys, and two small pocket knives.

These were the small 2 blade swiss army knives and I usually carry one, not for defense, but for convenience. They are about 3/16" thick and about 3" long, folded. Anyway it was an issue for them. I was told "You can't bring these knives in here." To which I stupidly replied, "Those aren't knives." Fortunately all I got for that was the stink eye and an eye roll. Left the knives with them to pick up later.

Went through the metal detector again with no problem. Picked up my paper bag off their table and went on about my business. As it turned out, inside the bag was a dangerous really hard bagel that I bought only a few minutes earlier. I probably could have knocked someone out with it.

[Curmudgeon]

I believe you have a double negative in your question...

Anyway since Sheriffs issue the LTCF and can deny it or revoke it, I assume (and I could be wrong here) that they can ask for it by lawful demand.

I can't back that up with any cite.

Interestingly enough, neither can they.

[andrewjs18]

I believe you have a double negative in your question...

Anyway since Sheriffs issue the LTCF and can deny it or revoke it, I assume (and I could be wrong here) that they can ask for it by lawful demand.

I can't back that up with any cite.

so simply asking to see your LTCF is a lawful demand?

[DaveM55]

so simply asking to see your LTCF is a lawful demand?

I did not say that.

My post was a response questioning IF Sheriffs could ask for a LTCF, not when or how.

I was NOT defining a lawful demand.

[Leftloose]

Yeah, I think "lawful demand" would be the operative term here and definitely needs to be defined....just what exactly constitutes a "lawful" demand?

[eXceLon]

About a year ago, I went to the Allegheny County court house on business unrelated to firearms and none on my person. I went through the metal detector and set it off, mostly due to keys and pocket change. They asked me to empty my pockets a place the contents in a basket. I also had a small paper bag which I placed on the table by the deputies. I emptied my pockets, lots of change, keys, and two small pocket knives.

These were the small 2 blade swiss army knives and I usually carry one, not for defense, but for convenience. They are about 3/16" thick and about 3" long, folded. Anyway it was an issue for them. I was told "You can't bring these knives in here." To which I stupidly replied, "Those aren't knives." Fortunately all I got for that was the stink eye and an eye roll. Left the knives with them to pick up later.

Went through the metal detector again with no problem. Picked up my paper bag off their table and went on about my business. As it turned out, inside the bag was a dangerous really hard bagel that I bought only a few minutes earlier. I probably could have knocked someone out with it.

I accidentally walked into the Westmoreland County Courthouse with my pocket knife. On the day that I was going in to apply for my LTCF.

It didn't even occur to me until I was walking in the front door, and saw the notice on the door about carrying weapons including knives. I just went up to the person at the checkpoint and explained, and they took the knife from me and gave me a receipt and I picked it up on my way out along with my shiny new LTCF. No real problem at all.

[God's Country]

TITLE 18 PA CRIMES CODES

§6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General rule.-When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to provide such license, either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing, shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

I don't believe PA sheriffs and their deputies are "law enforcement officers" anyway...except in Allegheny County.

I believe that is a debate that has been covered before without a definitive answer.
I have no clue whether deputies qualify as law enforcement. I suspect they consider themselves LEO’s however. Not that that necessarily means anything.

[rmodel65]

montoco is montgomery?? next time im there i will go there to the check point :P

[Philadelphia]

Yeah, I think "lawful demand" would be the operative term here and definitely needs to be defined....just what exactly constitutes a "lawful" demand?

I don't think it has ever been definitively interpreted. Here's a suggestion but first some background:

We all know that the legislature can't pass laws that violate the 4th Amendment (US) or Article 1, Section 8 (PA). We also all know that a LEO can't detain without RAS of crime.

The word "demand" means you are compelled. It's not a request; it's not a "mere encounter." If a LEO makes "demand" you are detained. Therefore, under Constitutional restrictions, the LEO could not make a demand without RAS; a demand under other circumstances would be unconstitutional and therefore unlawful.

The crux of a lot of arguments centers around whether merely carrying a concealed weapon allows a LEO to assume you might not have an LTCF and therefore detain you to determine that you do. I'd have to say no. By way of analogy I look to the law pertaining to frisks for "officer safety." An officer may only frisk a detainee if there is reason to believe the person is armed AND DANGEROUS (a lot of people seem to forget that part). Merely believing someone is armed is not enough -- the circumstances must indicate dangerous as well. Often enough, the context of detention will indicate some degree of danger -- like detaining a robbery suspect with a bulging waistband: OK, there is obviously potential danger there.

By the same token, LEOs can't bootstrap danger by simply saying they believe or know someone is carrying. We know from Hawkins that carrying still happens to be legal in PA and allowing police to demand to see an LTCF from everyone carrying if they are not giving any indications of being dangerous, is not allowed. It increases police/citizen encounters which in itself increases the danger to everyone involved. The PA Supreme Court said so.

So a lawful demand would be limited to those circumstances where the LEO has RAS of crime and justification to detain separate and apart from the mere carrying of a gun. And there you have it.

How it could play out is where the LEO becomes aware you have a concealed weapon and merely asks you if you have an LTCF (they can always ask you anything as long as you are not detained). Your reply is "yes" and that's it. You should not be compelled to produce it. If you want to get into it you could reply with "am I being detained?" If you are not free to go you have a civil rights suit teed up at that point. Etc.

If you really want to test it, "somebody" (somebody who has a lot more money than I do ) should file a lawsuit to prohibit all of these sheriffs from demanding to see your LTCF when checking your weapons at courthouses. What justification is there for requiring that you produce it?

[Rosco the Iroc]

W...T...F...!

That and what a royal goat fuck that check point was. If I had the pic I'd insert the Picard dbl face palm pic ---->here