Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A Case

    I know everyone has various opinions about the SCOTUS ruling the other day regarding McCain/Feingold Campaign Finance Reform. But take a look at this snippet from Chief Justice Roberts explaining the majority opinion and their point of view !!


    In his concurrence in yesterday’s landmark free speech case Citizens United v. F.E.C., Roberts elaborated on when it is acceptable for the Court to overturn precedent:
    ... if adherence to a precedent actually impedes the stable and orderly adjudication of future cases, its stare decisis effect is also diminished. This can happen in a number of circumstances, such as when the precedent’s validity is so hotly contested that it cannot reliably function as a basis for decision in future cases, when its rationale threatens to upend our settled jurisprudence in related areas of law, and when the precedent’s underlying reasoning has become so discredited that the Court cannot keep the precedent alive without jury-rigging new and different justifications to shore up the original mistake.



    Thats HUGE !! Even some of the most liberal Constitutional Scholars have already said that the Slaughterhouse Rulings were terrible decisions and should be overturned. Scalia last year chastised the lower Circuit Courts, telling them to ignore cases from the 1800's ( Cruickshank ,Presser) and look to more recent cases in this Century.


    Its getting really hard not be extremely confident that we're going to get a big win in McDonald, even more so now that Roberts just gave us a peek into the Courts viewpoint of continuing to rely on completely discredited precedent. Is it to late for Alan Gura to insert Roberts own remarks about discarding unsustainable precedents into his arguement ?


    BTW , case is scheduled to be argued on March 2.



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    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    While I think we will win in McDonald and it will be a big psychological win for our cause, I don't see it changing things all that much.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    Quote Originally Posted by zackattack784 View Post
    While I think we will win in McDonald and it will be a big psychological win for our cause, I don't see it changing things all that much.
    No disrespect, but I dont know how in the World you can say that!

    Incorporation changes EVERYTHING !! Laws in California , Wisconsin,Illinois,New York,New Jersey and Maryland will be tossed out within the first year !!
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud

    Proud to be an Enemy of The State

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    I'm sure I should know this, but can someone explain what McDonald is?

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    Quote Originally Posted by son of the revolution View Post
    No disrespect, but I dont know how in the World you can say that!

    Incorporation changes EVERYTHING !! Laws in California , Wisconsin,Illinois,New York,New Jersey and Maryland will be tossed out within the first year !!
    Straight from DC v. Heller
    "like most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."

    and

    The Court's opinion "should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

    When I read that I think, well people have an individual right to keep and bear arms, BUT there are certain restrictions on that right that the SCOTUS would uphold as constitutional. Therefore, imo I don't see many laws changing (especially in Jersey, the place where I would LOVE to be able to carry).
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    Quote Originally Posted by Conglomeration Al View Post
    I'm sure I should know this, but can someone explain what McDonald is?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

    Currently, the second amendment is NOT applied against the states like most of the other amendments in the bill of rights. If McDonald wins, the states would be required to uphold the second amendment just as they currently do for the first, fourth, fifth, etc.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    See zack , thats exactly where we disagree. I have EVERY confidence that NJ Laws WILL FALL. I cant say in what order. But since AR's ,AK's etc are most definetly " the most popular firearms ", which is something Scalia talked about in Heller , then I see NJ's AWB being struck down. I also see NJ going shall issue and said as much to the new Senate President Steve Sweeney ( whos rated A by the NRA ) when I had a one hour sit down with him before Xmas. His response ? Good , it'll save the Legislature from having to do it.

    I can understand being pessimistic to a point, but having been on the frontlines of the war over here in PSRNJ for the last several years, Im very confident McDonald will bring BIG changes to NJ. Keep in mind though, since their going to behave like a bunch of 5 year olds that didnt get their way , the NJ Legislature could still do things like NOT sign reciprocity agreements , or require live fire training as part of the permit , etc.

    I expect them to still stubbornly fuck with people , just like DC did post Heller. But I cannot imagine a situation post Heller AND McDonald where things will stay they way they are in NJ
    Last edited by son of the revolution; January 23rd, 2010 at 01:53 PM.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud

    Proud to be an Enemy of The State

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    You're right, I am just being pessimistic . Keep up the good fight over there in Jersey though. I really hope you're right. This is one situation where I'd love to be wrong.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    Quote Originally Posted by zackattack784 View Post
    You're right, I am just being pessimistic . Keep up the good fight over there in Jersey though. I really hope you're right. This is one situation where I'd love to be wrong.
    Here's the scheme I developed to make NJ " shall issue " post Heller.

    NJ recognizes LEOSA, artificially creating an Animal Farmesque situation where one set of citizens are explicitly recognized by law to be " more equal " then others ( you should see the Statutory language , its terrible and the bias is obvious in the text of the law).

    The 14th Ammendment was specifically enacted to provide equal protection under the law. NJ's recognition and acceptance of LEOSA flies in the face of the 14th Ammendment in both word and practice.

    Once McDonald comes down in favor of Incorporation of the 2A against the States, NJ residents denied carry permits file a class action suit against the State. For the above stated reasons.

    This will force the State to either rescind recognition of LEOSA , or switch to a "shall issue " format.

    The FOP/PBA will NEVER allow the State to rescind LEOSA , so that only leaves the State one option , either voluntarily or by suit they go to "shall issue"

    I would imagine the same strategy would prevail in the few states remaining that are " may issue ". In the rest of the Country that is "shall issue " , this isnt an issue becuase there is no conflict with LEOSA because the State issues permits to anyone that applies and is qualified. But in the last few holdouts that remain " may issue " , whilst recognizing LEOSA , the Incorporation ruling makes a HUGE difference.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud

    Proud to be an Enemy of The State

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    Default Re: Excerpt from Justice Roberts gives hint that Incorporation WILL win in SCOTUS 2A

    Quote Originally Posted by son of the revolution View Post
    Here's the scheme I developed to make NJ " shall issue " post Heller.

    NJ recognizes LEOSA, artificially creating an Animal Farmesque situation where one set of citizens are explicitly recognized by law to be " more equal " then others ( you should see the Statutory language , its terrible and the bias is obvious in the text of the law).

    The 14th Ammendment was specifically enacted to provide equal protection under the law. NJ's recognition and acceptance of LEOSA flies in the face of the 14th Ammendment in both word and practice.

    Once McDonald comes down in favor of Incorporation of the 2A against the States, NJ residents denied carry permits file a class action suit against the State. For the above stated reasons.

    This will force the State to either rescind recognition of LEOSA , or switch to a "shall issue " format.

    The FOP/PBA will NEVER allow the State to rescind LEOSA , so that only leaves the State one option , either voluntarily or by suit they go to "shall issue"

    I would imagine the same strategy would prevail in the few states remaining that are " may issue ". In the rest of the Country that is "shall issue " , this isnt an issue becuase there is no conflict with LEOSA because the State issues permits to anyone that applies and is qualified. But in the last few holdouts that remain " may issue " , whilst recognizing LEOSA , the Incorporation ruling makes a HUGE difference.
    Actually, LEOSA isn't the issue. NJ passed the Retired Officers Right to Carry in the late 90's(before LEOSA). That law would eventually be a precursor to LEOSA. It basically removed the "justifiable need" requirement for "qualified officers." There you have the equal protection issue.
    A good plantiff would be an officer that served just under the required time frame, and then was denied a permit. Of course, the Palmer and Sykes cases will basically spell the end of NJ's scheme.

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