Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Restricted home state license

    Maybe covered already...but we all know how well search works.


    I know for a fact that a person who is applying for a Non-res PA LTCF must have a license issued by his home state...but is there anything that says said permit MUST be unrestricted?

    For example...a gun owner in NY state has a carry permit that has a Target only restriction. Would he be denied a PA LTCF due to that restriction?

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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    This has been discussed at some point.
    IIRC those that tried this through centre county were rejected.
    He might get lucky but I don't believe it happens.

    Whay NY county?
    FUCK BIDEN

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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    There is an instructor in Ulster County trying to put together a list for his students of PA Sheriffs that might issue to restricted NY permits.

    I wasnt aware that a restricted permit was grounds for denial.

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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    Well, the UFA, concerning this subject reads, in part:

    (ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state,...

    I think carry is the key word there, so most sheriffs would probably consider that to mean to carry concealed, so if the non-res is restricted to target practice only, I could see how the PA LTCF would not be considered.

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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    There is an instructor in Ulster County trying to put together a list for his students of PA Sheriffs that might issue to restricted NY permits.

    I wasnt aware that a restricted permit was grounds for denial.
    It is not.

    18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses
    (a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.
    (b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.
    (c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason. The application form shall be dated and signed by the applicant and shall contain the following statement:
    I have never been convicted of a crime that prohibits me from possessing or acquiring a firearm under Federal or State law. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that, if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application. If I am issued a license and knowingly become ineligible to legally possess or acquire firearms, I will promptly notify the sheriff of the county in which I reside or, if I reside in a city of the first class, the chief of police of that city.
    (d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
    (1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;
    (2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
    (3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
    (4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
    (5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.
    (e) Issuance of license.--
    (1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:
    <snip>
    (ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).<snip>
    They possess a current license, permit, or similar document to carry a firearm issued by their home state, which has laws that have provided for said license. There is no distinction, that I am aware of, made in this, or any other, statute between an unrestricted license and a restricted one.

    The instructor's students should all apply to Centre county and if they are rejected, sue.


    ETA~ HG, even a restricted license allows you to carry a firearm. In the case of a "target only" one, you may carry to and from the range, IIRC.
    Last edited by headcase; January 16th, 2010 at 10:21 PM.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    It is not.

    They possess a current license, permit, or similar document to carry a firearm issued by their home state, which has laws that have provided for said license. There is no distinction, that I am aware of, made in this, or any other, statute between an unrestricted license and a restricted one.

    The instructor's students should all apply to Centre county and if they are rejected, sue.


    ETA~ HG, even a restricted license allows you to carry a firearm. In the case of a "target only" one, you may carry to and from the range, IIRC.
    I concur...
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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    The restricted permit is not unlike our sportmen's permit....correct?
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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    Found this info about restricted permits from Orange Co., NY:

    WHAT ABOUT RESTRICTION ON MY LICENSE?


    Restrictions on licenses under PL 400.(2),(f) are a great source of argument. Nothing in PL-400 requires that restrictions be placed on a license but New York State's highest court, the Appeals Court, has ruled that judges do have the "power to restrict" a handgun license when it ruled on O'Connor v. Scarpino, 83 N.Y.2d 919 (1994). The court has also ruled in O'Brien v. Keegan, 1996 N.Y. Int 26, that "the licensing officer is statutorily invested with the power to sua sponte revoke or cancel a license."

    Sua sponte means "Of his or its own will or motion, voluntarily; without prompting or suggestion." Look at #4 on the bottom of the application next to where you put your photograph, "ANY LICENSE ISSUED AS A RESULT OF THIS APPLICATION IS SUBJECT TO REVOCATION AT ANY TIME BY THE LICENSING OFFICER OR ANY JUDGE OR JUSTICE OF A COURT OF RECORD."

    "Permission to carry restricted to going to, from and on bona fide target shooting, hunting & fishing." is a popular wording of a common restriction. This restriction would allow you to carry a loaded firearm on your person while driving to a practice range but might not allow you to carry it while you get out of the car to get gas. Ask your judge what you should do. Other additions can be things like hiking, camping and any other time you might want to have your handgun with you.

    Each judge makes up his or her personal rules and requirements and interpretations. You will not be penalized for asking for an unrestricted license and you can request an unrestricted license at any time. Some judges do issue unrestricted licenses while others will almost never issue one for any reason. You must talk to your judge to find out what they are willing to do.

    Don't be surprised if your judge refuses to tell you anything, because they are not required to give any information except for a written reason for rejecting an amendment. (I support everyone applying for an unrestricted license because I think that everyone who qualifies for a New York State license has been ruled by a judge to be of "of good moral character" and that is all that should be required.

    Also, the judges will not give it to you if you do not ask for it. You have nothing to loose by asking for an unrestricted license even if it is rejected except for the $3 application fee.)

    If you are arrested or have some court proceeding against you, your judge will probably know within 24 hours and can take any action that he or she wants including taking your license and requiring that you turn in all of your guns, (or having the Sheriff's Department pick up your guns in extreme cases.) Also, if you are stopped by the police and they think that you are carrying outside of your restriction, or the police see or find out that you have a license and think that your judge should be aware of your actions or attitude, then they will inform your judge giving relevant information.

    Your judge then may take any action that he or she wants to take, (remember Sua sponte.) PL 400 also contains the following seldom used Section 15. "Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor." (I have been told by many people who have been stopped, that the police only asked if they had a license. Most of time they did not even look at the license much less at the restrictions.

    I have had police persons tell me that all they care about is if the person has a license. That is not to say that you will not get an anti-gun police person or that you will not be doing something that will make the officer ask!)

    If you are stopped and you have you handgun outside of your restrictions and the police person wants to give you a hard time, (even if you are really not doing anything wrong,) he should not arrest you for criminal possession of a firearm 2nd but he should inform your judge. SEE: PEOPLE v. PARKER 52 ny2d 935 (1981) (However you can not be sure that the police person knows of this case.)

    PLEASE NOTE: Most of the judges in Orange County are reasonable. Some are gun owners and are very knowledgeable about firearm ownership. The following information is to show what can happen if anti-gun judges are elected and how the law supports anti-gun judges and their rulings. Each judge is elected for 10 years and they have to retire at age 70.

    Of all of the votes that anyone can make that has a direct impact on handgun licenses in Orange County, THIS IS IT! You might have a pro-gun judge now but an anti-gun judge replacement years from now can change your license Sua sponte.


    If your request for a change in the restrictions on your license is rejected, your only recourse is with a CPLR Article 78 proceeding, and you will have to have a lawyer. It will probably end up costing you several thousand dollars and many months of your time. In order to win you must show that your judge's decision was "arbitrary and capricious or an abuse of discretion." (It is OK if the judge is irrational or anti-gun as long as they are that way with everyone, not just you.")

    It is very hard to get judges to rule that another judge's ruling was "arbitrary and capricious or an abuse of discretion." The other common ruling is that the judge did not offer an explanation or a good enough explanation of a rejection. Even if you win, you can expect something like the ruling in Davis v. Clyne: "... Decision withheld, and matter remitted for articulation of the reason for the restriction prohibiting petitioner use of the license for..." (It was for hunting in that case.)

    By the time a ruling in your favor is handed down, your judge will have have had more than enough time and motivation to come up with an even better reason why your request should be rejected. The judge can also grant you your request but add new creative restrictions that severely limit you in ways that you never thought of. (Such as allowing you to target practice but only at events sponsored by a specific group such as the NRA, Davis v. Clyne again.) You don't like the ruling, start another article 78.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Country View Post
    The restricted permit is not unlike our sportmen's permit....correct?
    I disagree. A Sportsmen's Permit alone is useless. It must be used "in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs" (6106(c)). A restricted permit is "restricted"/limited, but is valid alone for carry under the circumstances enumerated in the restrictions.
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    Default Re: Restricted home state license

    I wish i could locate the thread. I'm quite certain it's been tried.
    Not that it has any bearing on whether they should be issued.


    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    I disagree. A Sportsmen's Permit alone is useless. It must be used "in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs" (6106(c)). A restricted permit is "restricted"/limited, but is valid alone for carry under the circumstances enumerated in the restrictions.
    I understand the point being made, but you are trying to draw a line between a state that requires a permit to even transport or purchase a handgun to be used for sporting purposes vs. a state that does not. Therefore a sheriff could easily look at a NY restricted permit as being useless in Pa since it's technically not required to have to participate in Pa sporting activities. Unless I misunderstand the purpose for a NY restricted permit.
    Last edited by God's Country; January 16th, 2010 at 11:27 PM.
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