Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    South Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
    Posts
    1,536
    Rep Power
    725

    Default Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-180B?

    Okay, so I'm thinking of selling my Bushmaster M4 clone, my Mini-14 and replacing them either with a K-var SLR-106, a Bulgy AK-74 variant in 5.56 (specific model I'm looking at here: http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=356&page=1) OR an AR-180B.

    They're both in the same price range, so the advantages/disadvantages to each I see are:

    K-VAR

    Pros

    --Integral picatinny rail and folding stock standard on the K-var model I'm looking at. Would have to purchase rail and folding stock for the AR-180B.

    --Slightly shorter overall length

    --Battle-tested, legendary AK reliability

    Cons

    --Legendary AK reliability might be compromised by using non-tapered cartridges

    --Of course, standard issues of mags not quickly changeable and no bolt hold-open

    --Another obvious one-- shitty iron sights

    AR-180

    Pros

    --First it has some pros (IMO) over the standard M-4 including...longer barrel but folding stock means length when folded is comparable to an M-4 with telescoping stock completely collapsed, simpler operation, and here I'd mention the gas piston if I wanted to get flamed by the pro-DI folks

    --Quicker magazine exchange than the AK, plus bolt hold-open feature.

    --Better sights than the AK

    --Unlike the K-var, specifically designed for the 5.56

    Cons

    --As noted above, no integral picatinny rail and folding stock. Yeah, I can purchase this stuff, but I've had mixed results installing rails on my weapons...tough to get them tight enough to where they don't start to wiggle loose after several rounds.

    --Very limited service history to judge general reliability of the weapon in combat. The PIRA seemed to like it, but then again, these were fairly specific and limited conditions that largely involved picking off a British soldier or RUC cop from a multi-unit building, then taking off.

    So here's what I need help on:

    --Anyone have any clue on the reliability of the AR-180 versus the AR-15/M4 or versus the AK? I mean, I doubt it's gonna be as reliable and robust as an AK, but does it generally have a favorable reliability profile?

    --What about accuracy? How will it stack up vs. the K-var? Very interested in this. On the one hand I've heard it's not quite as accurate as the AR-15, on the other, as noted above, seemed to work well enough for PIRA snipers (though presumably at relatively short distances given the urban environment). But bottom line is...will the AR-180 give me better accuracy than an AK-74 clone in 5.56, and if so, will it be significant or merely marginal?

    Thanks in advance for any help you can give. I'm ditchin both my .223 weapons in favor of whatever I choose here (and don't plan on purchasing anymore anytime soon), so it's a pretty important choice or me
    Last edited by Eugene V. Debs; January 10th, 2010 at 02:15 PM.
    "When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bucks County, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    1,911
    Rep Power
    2693746

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    i would not ever get rid of my AR15 for the 180B, period. i've never fired the 180B but i have handled one and in my opinion it felt cheap and poorly made. i didn't like the fact the receiver is polymer and i've read on other boards the receiver has cracked. from what i've read the reviews are mixed when it comes to the 180B and there's nothing that stands out that would make me consider buying one. it's my understanding the 180B has been discontinued for a couple of years now so that should tell you a little about the rifle. if you want a piston driven rifle there are much better options out there than the 180B. the ruger 556 and sig 556 to name a couple or you can buy a conversion kit and i think bushmaster makes a piston upper.

    i'm not familier with the K-Var AK's, i thought K-var just sold parts, kits and accessories. if the builds are good quality than i don't see anything wrong with buying one but i'm not sure i would get rid of the BM or mini14 in favor of the AK. the SLR106 sounds like it's built by arsenal which in my opinion builds some of the best AK's on the market. i owned a arsenal built Ak with milled receiver but sold it and it's one of the few rifles that i've sold and regretted.
    Last edited by wellcraft; January 10th, 2010 at 09:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Perry Co., Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,831
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    There are lots of complete piston uppers & parts to build one out there. I'd just get an upper & add it to your Bushy. It'd be less $$$ & you could always add a lower at a later date.

    Unless, of course, you really want a new gun. If I was going to get a new piston gun,(And I had the money!) I'd like to look at Lewis Machine & Tool's new model for starters.
    "It's hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."
    Thomas Sowell

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nowhere Land, Pennsylvania
    (Westmoreland County)
    Posts
    4,954
    Rep Power
    5723755

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene V. Debs View Post
    K-VAR

    Cons

    --Legendary AK reliability might be compromised by using non-tapered cartridges
    Reliability is fine. K-VAR has "cracked the code" re: feed ramp profile and "circle 10" magazines with respect to the SLR-106.

    --Of course, standard issues of mags not quickly changeable and no bolt hold-open
    This is a training issue and not a show stopper. IOW, this is not a "con".

    --Another obvious one-- shitty iron sights
    Not an issue considering they will (or should) be relegated to the role of BUIS. Mount an optic on that rail.

    AR-180

    Pros

    --First it has some pros (IMO) over the standard M-4 including...longer barrel but folding stock means length when folded is comparable to an M-4 with telescoping stock completely collapsed, simpler operation,
    The folding stocks only correlate to "transportation" in confined spaces (armored transport or vehicle borne) and since all platforms have collapsible or folding stocks, none have an advantage over the others.

    IMO, nothing is simpler than the AR due to its superb ergonomics.

    --Quicker magazine exchange than the AK, plus bolt hold-open feature.
    As indicated above, mag exchanges on the AK platform are a training issue and should not be considered a "con".

    --Better sights than the AK
    Not if an optic is mounted on the AK and the AK's iron sights are its BUIS.

    --Unlike the K-var, specifically designed for the 5.56
    Again, K-VAR has cracked the code.

    Cons

    --As noted above, no integral picatinny rail and folding stock. Yeah, I can purchase this stuff, but I've had mixed results installing rails on my weapons...tough to get them tight enough to where they don't start to wiggle loose after several rounds.
    No integral or aftermarket rails are definitely a "con" IMO.

    --Very limited service history to judge general reliability of the weapon in combat. The PIRA seemed to like it, but then again, these were fairly specific and limited conditions that largely involved picking off a British soldier or RUC cop from a multi-unit building, then taking off.
    Performance of any platform based on use by a "bush league quasi-military" unit should be considered with a HUGE grain of salt.

    So here's what I need help on:

    --Anyone have any clue on the reliability of the AR-180 versus the AR-15/M4 or versus the AK? I mean, I doubt it's gonna be as reliable and robust as an AK, but does it generally have a favorable reliability profile?
    All indications are that the AR180 is a reliable platform.

    --What about accuracy? How will it stack up vs. the K-var? Very interested in this. On the one hand I've heard it's not quite as accurate as the AR-15, on the other, as noted above, seemed to work well enough for PIRA snipers (though presumably at relatively short distances given the urban environment). But bottom line is...will the AR-180 give me better accuracy than an AK-74 clone in 5.56, and if so, will it be significant or merely marginal?
    All indications are that they have adequate "combat accuracy".

    The biggest negative concerning the AR180B is that it has proprietary parts which will make it difficult to maintain over the long term.

    IMHO, you should reconsider changing platforms or perhaps get rid of the Mini and acquire another M4.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    2,294
    Rep Power
    10410

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Just keep in mind if memory serves, the 106 series was designed to be SBR'd...

    That said Arsenal builds fantastic rifles and I wouldn't hesitate to by more of them....

    My SAM 7 Carbine is among my favorite rifles that I own...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    South Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
    Posts
    1,536
    Rep Power
    725

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Thanks to everyone here. I knew I'd get some good advice. Eh, I guess I just really liked the idea of the AR-18, but on further consideration, after reading what people wrote here, I guess maybe I'll hang on to the M4, or at least go with a k-var over the AR-180.

    Quote Originally Posted by wellcraft
    i would not ever get rid of my AR15 for the 180B, period. i've never fired the 180B but i have handled one and in my opinion it felt cheap and poorly made. i didn't like the fact the receiver is polymer and i've read on other boards the receiver has cracked. from what i've read the reviews are mixed when it comes to the 180B and there's nothing that stands out that would make me consider buying one. it's my understanding the 180B has been discontinued for a couple of years now so that should tell you a little about the rifle. if you want a piston driven rifle there are much better options out there than the 180B. the ruger 556 and sig 556 to name a couple or you can buy a conversion kit and i think bushmaster makes a piston upper.
    Cool. Good info. Yeah, the Ruger or Sig 556s would be awesome (don't think I haven't considered it), but outta my price range at the moment. Maybe I'll keep the Bushmaster and add a gas piston kit.

    the SLR106 sounds like it's built by arsenal which in my opinion builds some of the best AK's on the market. i owned a arsenal built Ak with milled receiver but sold it and it's one of the few rifles that i've sold and regretted.
    Good to know

    Quote Originally Posted by IronButt View Post
    There are lots of complete piston uppers & parts to build one out there. I'd just get an upper & add it to your Bushy. It'd be less $$$ & you could always add a lower at a later date.
    Yeah, actually, this was the original plan-- to use the sale of the Mini-14 to finance a gas piston retrofit kit from Bushmaster. With that and some p-mags I'd have a nice little "upgrade" to my current platform. Then I got on an AR-18 kick in my brain-- maybe I'll just go back to the original plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF
    Reliability is fine. K-VAR has "cracked the code" re: feed ramp profile and "circle 10" magazines with respect to the SLR-106.
    Very good to know. This is very helpful info.

    Not an issue considering they will (or should) be relegated to the role of BUIS. Mount an optic on that rail.
    Oh, I fully intend to-- it's just that I think the iron sights should be good w/o fancy optics necessary, ya know?

    The folding stocks only correlate to "transportation" in confined spaces (armored transport or vehicle borne) and since all platforms have collapsible or folding stocks, none have an advantage over the others.
    Right, but point is, when transported the 180 has an overall length comparable to the M4, but has a longer barrel, which (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) to my understanding has been proven to affect the performance of the 5.56's stopping power (which is one of the reasons the 6.8 was developed-- for the M4).

    IMO, nothing is simpler than the AR due to its superb ergonomics.
    I dunno-- hard for me to see how having a separate forward assist and a separate mechanism for shutting the bolt from the open position is "simpler" than having the charging handle fill those functions like with the AR-18

    As indicated above, mag exchanges on the AK platform are a training issue and should not be considered a "con".
    How so? Seems to me that mag exchanges are always gonna be a bit slower on an AK than an AR and involve taking your hand off the grip. But you very well may know something I don't here, which is why I'm asking.

    Performance of any platform based on use by a "bush league quasi-military" unit should be considered with a HUGE grain of salt.
    Sure, but given that I live in a major urban area, in a SHTF scenario, I could have worse examples than the PIRA as a model to work from I think the PIRA/INLA would do well in the event of a zombie attack.

    All indications are that the AR180 is a reliable platform.
    Cool.

    All indications are that they have adequate "combat accuracy".
    Okay, but this doesn't really answer my question as to how much more accurate the AR-18 is over an Arsenal AK-74 in 5.56.

    IMHO, you should reconsider changing platforms or perhaps get rid of the Mini and acquire another M4.
    Well, right now I'm leaning towards keeping the M4 and maybe just making some "upgrades" to it and ditching the Mini. Definitely won't be getting another AR. But I guess the main question I have for you, and not sure I really got it from your response-- if you could only own one weapon-- the AR-180 or SLR-106-- excluding parts issues (well taken advice by the way), which would you pick and why? I suspect from what you wrote you'd lean towards the SLR-106, but just like to confirm.

    Quote Originally Posted by d90king
    Just keep in mind if memory serves, the 106 series was designed to be SBR'd...
    What do you mean? Barrel is 16.5

    Again, thanks to everyone. Time to go on a rep fest
    Last edited by Eugene V. Debs; January 10th, 2010 at 02:13 PM.
    "When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    2,294
    Rep Power
    10410

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene V. Debs View Post

    What do you mean? Barrel is 16.5

    Again, thanks to everyone. Time to go on a rep fest

    Here is a link and you will see what I mean...

    http://www.arsenalinc.com/news-slr106unurout.htm

    Notice the nut is all the way at the FSB that is moved all the way back to the "krink" style hand guards. Also notice where the rear sight is. It is not a traditional front leaf and attaches to the dust cover (which memory tells me is held on with a spring lever). GWM is running a Aimpoint T1 attached to his, but if you look at the link you will see its placement is non traditional...

    They are designed from the get go to simply chop and install a brake.

    Here is a pic of a 107 (7.62x39) that was "Krinked"
    Last edited by d90king; January 10th, 2010 at 02:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    2,294
    Rep Power
    10410

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-180B?

    GWM is running a Bulgarian "krink" flash suppressor type here is a pic of a traditional Krink flash suppressor... Also a little better pic of the rear sight.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    East side of the ANF, Pennsylvania
    (Elk County)
    Posts
    7,018
    Rep Power
    21474859

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF View Post
    . . . All indications are that the AR180 is a reliable platform . . .
    True. My Sterling-made AR180 (NOT 180B) was as reliable as the day was long. Brass cases, steel case, zinc-plated steel cases, no matter. I eventually sold it because of the slow twist (1:12) that precluded me using 62 gr ammo.


    . . . The biggest negative concerning the AR180B is that it has proprietary parts which will make it difficult to maintain over the long term.
    Sorta disagree. IMO the biggest issue with the 180 Bravo is the polymer lower and the lack of molded-in metal reinforcement in the hinge bosses. When owners opened up the guns and let the upper rotate forward without control, lowers would crack at the hinge. Saw it happen while at the range to the 180 Bravo owned by an acquaintance. He sent it back, Armalite replied, "Tough shit, the manual says this may happen and be sure to control the upper when opening." That said, if you consider the polymer lower to be one of the "proprietary parts," then yes, I agree.

    In my experience, I have two $300 .223 Saigas (bought back in the day) that are capable of consistently hitting a 12" gong from a rest at 440 yds. As TonyF mentioned, the 5.56 AK is capable of "combat accuracy." That accuracy is certainly better than a scoped 7.62 AK is capable of, because I saw my 20-yr-old daughter hit the 440 gong 25/29 in early October using one of the Saigas, UNSCOPED, while shooting at the next bench over from a mid-20s male with a scoped 7.62 AK. He fired 30 rds (I was counting) and had four (4) hits. We use Wieger mags in our 922r compliant PG-converted Saigas (with feed ramps installed), and they are 100% reliable. I would not hesitate to take one off the rack if the SHTF. Also, I woud not hesitate to purchase a 106 if I had the $$$ and was so inclined. That said, I'm not inclined because the Saigas and the M4geries that we have are all super-reliable and accurate, and I cannot see the worth of spending much more $$$ for something that would not necessarily perform better than the guns I already own.

    If the M4 configuration is not satisfactory, then simply get a different upper assembled to your preferences, including a piston setup if you so wish.

    Personally, IIWM I'd table the thought for a couple weeks. I'm thinking you have a touch of newgunitis, and just need to cool off a bit. [/QUOTE]

    JMO and experience,

    Noah
    Last edited by Noah_Zark; January 10th, 2010 at 04:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nowhere Land, Pennsylvania
    (Westmoreland County)
    Posts
    4,954
    Rep Power
    5723755

    Default Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?

    Quote Originally Posted by d90king View Post
    Just keep in mind if memory serves, the 106 series was designed to be SBR'd...
    The "U's" were purpose built SBR's but the "F's" were not.

    You can still find F's on the used market in NIB condition.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. If you had to choose....
    By jamz in forum General
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: December 10th, 2008, 03:33 AM
  2. help me choose!
    By smoke-wagon in forum General
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: November 2nd, 2008, 12:34 PM
  3. Help me choose
    By pitt45GAP in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 21st, 2008, 07:45 AM
  4. Help Me Choose
    By jon'76 in forum General
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: March 30th, 2008, 11:42 AM
  5. Please help me choose which one!
    By 1FingrCHan in forum General
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: June 27th, 2007, 09:06 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •