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January 10th, 2010, 01:56 AM #1
Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-180B?
Okay, so I'm thinking of selling my Bushmaster M4 clone, my Mini-14 and replacing them either with a K-var SLR-106, a Bulgy AK-74 variant in 5.56 (specific model I'm looking at here: http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=356&page=1) OR an AR-180B.
They're both in the same price range, so the advantages/disadvantages to each I see are:
K-VAR
Pros
--Integral picatinny rail and folding stock standard on the K-var model I'm looking at. Would have to purchase rail and folding stock for the AR-180B.
--Slightly shorter overall length
--Battle-tested, legendary AK reliability
Cons
--Legendary AK reliability might be compromised by using non-tapered cartridges
--Of course, standard issues of mags not quickly changeable and no bolt hold-open
--Another obvious one-- shitty iron sights
AR-180
Pros
--First it has some pros (IMO) over the standard M-4 including...longer barrel but folding stock means length when folded is comparable to an M-4 with telescoping stock completely collapsed, simpler operation, and here I'd mention the gas piston if I wanted to get flamed by the pro-DI folks
--Quicker magazine exchange than the AK, plus bolt hold-open feature.
--Better sights than the AK
--Unlike the K-var, specifically designed for the 5.56
Cons
--As noted above, no integral picatinny rail and folding stock. Yeah, I can purchase this stuff, but I've had mixed results installing rails on my weapons...tough to get them tight enough to where they don't start to wiggle loose after several rounds.
--Very limited service history to judge general reliability of the weapon in combat. The PIRA seemed to like it, but then again, these were fairly specific and limited conditions that largely involved picking off a British soldier or RUC cop from a multi-unit building, then taking off.
So here's what I need help on:
--Anyone have any clue on the reliability of the AR-180 versus the AR-15/M4 or versus the AK? I mean, I doubt it's gonna be as reliable and robust as an AK, but does it generally have a favorable reliability profile?
--What about accuracy? How will it stack up vs. the K-var? Very interested in this. On the one hand I've heard it's not quite as accurate as the AR-15, on the other, as noted above, seemed to work well enough for PIRA snipers (though presumably at relatively short distances given the urban environment). But bottom line is...will the AR-180 give me better accuracy than an AK-74 clone in 5.56, and if so, will it be significant or merely marginal?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give. I'm ditchin both my .223 weapons in favor of whatever I choose here (and don't plan on purchasing anymore anytime soon), so it's a pretty important choice or meLast edited by Eugene V. Debs; January 10th, 2010 at 02:15 PM.
"When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh
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January 10th, 2010, 09:40 AM #2
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
i would not ever get rid of my AR15 for the 180B, period. i've never fired the 180B but i have handled one and in my opinion it felt cheap and poorly made. i didn't like the fact the receiver is polymer and i've read on other boards the receiver has cracked. from what i've read the reviews are mixed when it comes to the 180B and there's nothing that stands out that would make me consider buying one. it's my understanding the 180B has been discontinued for a couple of years now so that should tell you a little about the rifle. if you want a piston driven rifle there are much better options out there than the 180B. the ruger 556 and sig 556 to name a couple or you can buy a conversion kit and i think bushmaster makes a piston upper.
i'm not familier with the K-Var AK's, i thought K-var just sold parts, kits and accessories. if the builds are good quality than i don't see anything wrong with buying one but i'm not sure i would get rid of the BM or mini14 in favor of the AK. the SLR106 sounds like it's built by arsenal which in my opinion builds some of the best AK's on the market. i owned a arsenal built Ak with milled receiver but sold it and it's one of the few rifles that i've sold and regretted.Last edited by wellcraft; January 10th, 2010 at 09:48 AM.
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January 10th, 2010, 10:55 AM #3
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
There are lots of complete piston uppers & parts to build one out there. I'd just get an upper & add it to your Bushy. It'd be less $$$ & you could always add a lower at a later date.
Unless, of course, you really want a new gun. If I was going to get a new piston gun,(And I had the money!) I'd like to look at Lewis Machine & Tool's new model for starters."It's hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."
Thomas Sowell
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January 10th, 2010, 11:07 AM #4Grand Member
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Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
Reliability is fine. K-VAR has "cracked the code" re: feed ramp profile and "circle 10" magazines with respect to the SLR-106.
--Of course, standard issues of mags not quickly changeable and no bolt hold-open
--Another obvious one-- shitty iron sights
AR-180
Pros
--First it has some pros (IMO) over the standard M-4 including...longer barrel but folding stock means length when folded is comparable to an M-4 with telescoping stock completely collapsed, simpler operation,
IMO, nothing is simpler than the AR due to its superb ergonomics.
--Quicker magazine exchange than the AK, plus bolt hold-open feature.
--Better sights than the AK
--Unlike the K-var, specifically designed for the 5.56
Cons
--As noted above, no integral picatinny rail and folding stock. Yeah, I can purchase this stuff, but I've had mixed results installing rails on my weapons...tough to get them tight enough to where they don't start to wiggle loose after several rounds.
--Very limited service history to judge general reliability of the weapon in combat. The PIRA seemed to like it, but then again, these were fairly specific and limited conditions that largely involved picking off a British soldier or RUC cop from a multi-unit building, then taking off.
So here's what I need help on:
--Anyone have any clue on the reliability of the AR-180 versus the AR-15/M4 or versus the AK? I mean, I doubt it's gonna be as reliable and robust as an AK, but does it generally have a favorable reliability profile?
--What about accuracy? How will it stack up vs. the K-var? Very interested in this. On the one hand I've heard it's not quite as accurate as the AR-15, on the other, as noted above, seemed to work well enough for PIRA snipers (though presumably at relatively short distances given the urban environment). But bottom line is...will the AR-180 give me better accuracy than an AK-74 clone in 5.56, and if so, will it be significant or merely marginal?
The biggest negative concerning the AR180B is that it has proprietary parts which will make it difficult to maintain over the long term.
IMHO, you should reconsider changing platforms or perhaps get rid of the Mini and acquire another M4.
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January 10th, 2010, 12:30 PM #5
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
Just keep in mind if memory serves, the 106 series was designed to be SBR'd...
That said Arsenal builds fantastic rifles and I wouldn't hesitate to by more of them....
My SAM 7 Carbine is among my favorite rifles that I own...
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January 10th, 2010, 02:08 PM #6
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
Thanks to everyone here. I knew I'd get some good advice. Eh, I guess I just really liked the idea of the AR-18, but on further consideration, after reading what people wrote here, I guess maybe I'll hang on to the M4, or at least go with a k-var over the AR-180.
Originally Posted by wellcraft
the SLR106 sounds like it's built by arsenal which in my opinion builds some of the best AK's on the market. i owned a arsenal built Ak with milled receiver but sold it and it's one of the few rifles that i've sold and regretted.
Yeah, actually, this was the original plan-- to use the sale of the Mini-14 to finance a gas piston retrofit kit from Bushmaster. With that and some p-mags I'd have a nice little "upgrade" to my current platform. Then I got on an AR-18 kick in my brain-- maybe I'll just go back to the original plan.
Originally Posted by TonyF
Not an issue considering they will (or should) be relegated to the role of BUIS. Mount an optic on that rail.
The folding stocks only correlate to "transportation" in confined spaces (armored transport or vehicle borne) and since all platforms have collapsible or folding stocks, none have an advantage over the others.
IMO, nothing is simpler than the AR due to its superb ergonomics.
As indicated above, mag exchanges on the AK platform are a training issue and should not be considered a "con".
Performance of any platform based on use by a "bush league quasi-military" unit should be considered with a HUGE grain of salt.
All indications are that the AR180 is a reliable platform.
All indications are that they have adequate "combat accuracy".
IMHO, you should reconsider changing platforms or perhaps get rid of the Mini and acquire another M4.
Originally Posted by d90king
Again, thanks to everyone. Time to go on a rep festLast edited by Eugene V. Debs; January 10th, 2010 at 02:13 PM.
"When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh
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January 10th, 2010, 02:42 PM #7
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
Here is a link and you will see what I mean...
http://www.arsenalinc.com/news-slr106unurout.htm
Notice the nut is all the way at the FSB that is moved all the way back to the "krink" style hand guards. Also notice where the rear sight is. It is not a traditional front leaf and attaches to the dust cover (which memory tells me is held on with a spring lever). GWM is running a Aimpoint T1 attached to his, but if you look at the link you will see its placement is non traditional...
They are designed from the get go to simply chop and install a brake.
Here is a pic of a 107 (7.62x39) that was "Krinked"
Last edited by d90king; January 10th, 2010 at 02:49 PM.
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January 10th, 2010, 02:48 PM #8
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-180B?
GWM is running a Bulgarian "krink" flash suppressor type here is a pic of a traditional Krink flash suppressor... Also a little better pic of the rear sight.
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January 10th, 2010, 03:54 PM #9
Re: Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-108B?
True. My Sterling-made AR180 (NOT 180B) was as reliable as the day was long. Brass cases, steel case, zinc-plated steel cases, no matter. I eventually sold it because of the slow twist (1:12) that precluded me using 62 gr ammo.
. . . The biggest negative concerning the AR180B is that it has proprietary parts which will make it difficult to maintain over the long term.
In my experience, I have two $300 .223 Saigas (bought back in the day) that are capable of consistently hitting a 12" gong from a rest at 440 yds. As TonyF mentioned, the 5.56 AK is capable of "combat accuracy." That accuracy is certainly better than a scoped 7.62 AK is capable of, because I saw my 20-yr-old daughter hit the 440 gong 25/29 in early October using one of the Saigas, UNSCOPED, while shooting at the next bench over from a mid-20s male with a scoped 7.62 AK. He fired 30 rds (I was counting) and had four (4) hits. We use Wieger mags in our 922r compliant PG-converted Saigas (with feed ramps installed), and they are 100% reliable. I would not hesitate to take one off the rack if the SHTF. Also, I woud not hesitate to purchase a 106 if I had the $$$ and was so inclined. That said, I'm not inclined because the Saigas and the M4geries that we have are all super-reliable and accurate, and I cannot see the worth of spending much more $$$ for something that would not necessarily perform better than the guns I already own.
If the M4 configuration is not satisfactory, then simply get a different upper assembled to your preferences, including a piston setup if you so wish.
Personally, IIWM I'd table the thought for a couple weeks. I'm thinking you have a touch of newgunitis, and just need to cool off a bit. [/QUOTE]
JMO and experience,
NoahLast edited by Noah_Zark; January 10th, 2010 at 04:21 PM.
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January 10th, 2010, 06:59 PM #10Grand Member
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