Help me choose my next purchase-- K-var SLR 106 or AR-180B?

[TonyF]

Sorta disagree. IMO the biggest issue with the 180 Bravo is the polymer lower and the lack of molded-in metal reinforcement in the hinge bosses. When owners opened up the guns and let the upper rotate forward without control, lowers would crack at the hinge. Saw it happen while at the range to the 180 Bravo owned by an acquaintance. He sent it back, Armalite replied, "Tough shit, the manual says this may happen and be sure to control the upper when opening." That said, if you consider the polymer lower to be one of the "proprietary parts," then yes, I agree.

I vaguely recollect that there were at least a few other parts that were proprietary in order for them to utilize AR15 FCG components. I just can't recall what they were.

[TonyF]

The folding stocks only correlate to "transportation" in confined spaces (armored transport or vehicle borne) and since all platforms have collapsible or folding stocks, none have an advantage over the others.

Right, but point is, when transported the 180 has an overall length comparable to the M4, but has a longer barrel, which (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) to my understanding has been proven to affect the performance of the 5.56's stopping power (which is one of the reasons the 6.8 was developed-- for the M4).

The terminal performance of M193 and M855 is certainly enhanced by maximizing MV and longer barrels do help. But in the context of "fighting", I don't consider the overall "footprint" of a rifle with a folded stock and + four inches of barrel to be an asset.

You can't fight with the AR180 stock folded and when deployed, that extra four inches of barrel does make a difference indoors. Not to mention that the AR180 folding stock is a "fixed length" whereas contemporary telescoping stocks available today for the AR15 platform can be adjusted to suit a specific LOP. LOP is not an insignificant issue.

IMO, nothing is simpler than the AR due to its superb ergonomics.

I dunno-- hard for me to see how having a separate forward assist and a separate mechanism for shutting the bolt from the open position is "simpler" than having the charging handle fill those functions like with the AR-18

Nobody uses the FA. It can cause more problems than it solves. But the bolt release on the AR15 platform could not be located in a more ergonomic position whereas the AR180 charging handle is on the "strong side" like an AK. Certainly not a show stopper but reaching "over" or "around" is not as user friendly as slapping a support side bolt release or running the AR15 CH with the support hand.

As indicated above, mag exchanges on the AK platform are a training issue and should not be considered a "con".

How so? Seems to me that mag exchanges are always gonna be a bit slower on an AK than an AR and involve taking your hand off the grip. But you very well may know something I don't here, which is why I'm asking.

Everyone teaches support side magazine handling on the AK platform. A "bit" slower, yes. This is another issue that in the context of a "fight" will likely not make a difference in 99.99999999999999% of engagements.

All indications are that they have adequate "combat accuracy".

Okay, but this doesn't really answer my question as to how much more accurate the AR-18 is over an Arsenal AK-74 in 5.56.

It really doesn't matter. The combined average MOA of all three platforms is probably about 3MOA with a range of 2MOA to 4MOA. The difference is negligible and suggests you may be afflicted with what Col. Cooper referred to as Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments.

Well, right now I'm leaning towards keeping the M4 and maybe just making some "upgrades" to it and ditching the Mini. Definitely won't be getting another AR. But I guess the main question I have for you, and not sure I really got it from your response-- if you could only own one weapon-- the AR-180 or SLR-106-- excluding parts issues (well taken advice by the way), which would you pick and why? I suspect from what you wrote you'd lean towards the SLR-106, but just like to confirm.

The SLR-106F. Easier to maintain over the long term. Even though it's 5.56, it's still an AK and repairs are relatively simple.

[Willie D]

Piggyback question:

What exactly are the mag options for a .223 AK? I was under the impression that one had to either use 5.45 mags and cross fingers, mod 5.45 mags, or use cruddy US made .223 mags.

Are the Bulgy mags purpose-built for .223?

[TonyF]

Piggyback question:

What exactly are the mag options for a .223 AK? I was under the impression that one had to either use 5.45 mags and cross fingers, mod 5.45 mags, or use cruddy US made .223 mags.

Are the Bulgy mags purpose-built for .223?

For the most part they are proprietary to the country of origin (e.g. chicom, weiger and k-var / bulgy).

[d90king]

The "U's" were purpose built SBR's but the "F's" were not.

You can still find F's on the used market in NIB condition.

I missed the link... Thanks!


Deb's
If it is the one pictured in the link I highly recommend going without the one with the MI rail. It really f... the balance of the rifle up, is wide and gets extremely hot.

[mojo]

Deb's
If it is the one pictured in the link I highly recommend going without the one with the MI rail. It really f... the balance of the rifle up, is wide and gets extremely hot.

+1 ... If you want a rail, get a normal AK and replace the upper HG with the one that d90king has. Much better option plus I believe that it allows you to co-witness.

[mak47]

It sounds to me like you're a fan of the 5.56 cartridge. Here's my suggestion, for what it may be worth.

Keep your M4. I don't see any significant advantage in the AR180b platform over it and the market for selling AR's right now is horrible. You won't get what it's really worth, not even close. You'll end up selling a high quality gun that you know is reliable and accurate and making a gamble (that will still cost you more money) on something new. Keep the M4.

Consider selling or trading the Mini14. In my experience, for any commercially produced gun, budsbuysguns.com gives the best prices of any "shop". Get a quote from them and then put it up on the classifieds for $75-$100 more. If you do the math on that, and the number isn't high enough for you, then reconsider selling it. Unfortunately, people just aren't buying these things right now.

As for what you should get...

Your concerns over mags and design are valid with the K-var. Additionally, you'll be shooting 5.56 out of a 16" barrel. This has a significant impact on the efficacy of the bullet. (AR15 carbines experience the same thing)

You could also consider a Galil clone, they tend to be on the less expensive side and you can purchase a drop in adapter that will allow it to use standard AR15 magazines that you already have. It's built like an AK, but with AR style sights, and a 20" barrel. It also has a folding stock. It was also always designed to use the 5.56 cartridge.

They run in the $550-$700 range typically.

gunporn-galil.jpg

While I know you're liking the 5.56 cartridge, this is also not a bad time to consider an AK-74 chambered for 5.45x39.

These guns are selling anywhere from $450 to $800 right now, depending on where you're shopping. Look for an original chrome lined barrel, but Century has finally got the barrel right for their US made models and you'll save a lot of cash going that route.

Mags will run anywhere from $13-$25 depending on what the sellers have in stock that week and you won't have to make any modifications.

Surplus ammo is readily available in large quantities, at low prices as well. I've seen crates of 2,160 rounds going for under $300 regularly.

The 5.45 cartridge is notoriously nasty and was developed for the AK platform's 16" barrel, so you get the appropriate velocity when shooting it, unlike 5.56 out of the same length barrel.

Recoil is similar if not lower than 5.56, and it's super cheap to shoot. I'd be doing wrong by not at least mentioning it.

Anyhow, good luck in your hunt. If you want any help locating anything PM me. I'll send you links if you need them.

[Eugene V. Debs]

Everyone teaches support side magazine handling on the AK platform. A "bit" slower, yes. This is another issue that in the context of a "fight" will likely not make a difference in 99.99999999999999% of engagements.

Yeah, I know, I know-- I was just frustrated when I wrote that because a few days before I posted that I was having problems with a shit Bulgy mag I just purchased that was fitting too tight and making the mag change a real pain in the ass. I was blaming the AK when I should have been blaming the mag.

Dear AK, I made a mistake. Baby, I'm sorry. I was wrong. Let's not fight again.

It sounds to me like you're a fan of the 5.56 cartridge.

Actually, I'm not a fan of it. But it's a common, domestically-produced round with a flatter trajectory than a 7.62x39. So I'm not a "fan" of it, but practically-speaking, it's a good round that I don't have to worry about possible import bans in the future. I actually think I'd most like to have a weapon in 6.8 SPC, but will hold off until this round, and weapons made for it, become more common.

Keep your M4. I don't see any significant advantage in the AR180b platform over it and the market for selling AR's right now is horrible. You won't get what it's really worth, not even close. You'll end up selling a high quality gun that you know is reliable and accurate and making a gamble (that will still cost you more money) on something new. Keep the M4.

Yeah, I'm off my AR-18 kick. In part due to responses in this thread. And on further reflection, again, due in part to people's suggestions here, I'll be keeping the M4.

Consider selling or trading the Mini14. In my experience, for any commercially produced gun, budsbuysguns.com gives the best prices of any "shop". Get a quote from them and then put it up on the classifieds for $75-$100 more. If you do the math on that, and the number isn't high enough for you, then reconsider selling it. Unfortunately, people just aren't buying these things right now.

Thanks. Good advice. But I think I'm probably gonna end up selling it to a friend who's got his eye on it.

Additionally, you'll be shooting 5.56 out of a 16" barrel. This has a significant impact on the efficacy of the bullet. (AR15 carbines experience the same thing)...

...The 5.45 cartridge is notoriously nasty and was developed for the AK platform's 16" barrel, so you get the appropriate velocity when shooting it, unlike 5.56 out of the same length barrel.

Good points. The 5.45 does outperform the 5.56 in certain respects.

You could also consider a Galil clone, they tend to be on the less expensive side and you can purchase a drop in adapter that will allow it to use standard AR15 magazines that you already have. It's built like an AK, but with AR style sights, and a 20" barrel. It also has a folding stock. It was also always designed to use the 5.56 cartridge.

They run in the $550-$700 range typically.

Hm, hadn't thought of a Galil. Good idea! But now I must choose between the k-var, Saiga, and Galil. I get what you're saying about the barrel length. I am aware the 5.56 SS109 does not as reliably tumble or fragment from shorter barrels. But I do prefer having a shorter barrel, and the Galil is 1-2 lbs. heavier than the other rifles in the running.

Gonna have to think on this more...