Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    I did a search to see if there was any previous discussion on this topic, but came up empty. Admittedly, my search-fu is weak, so if I'm mentioning something that can be found in another thread, I'll take it there.

    I had suggested to someone recently that they consider obtaining a PA LTCF, and I was browsing the Philadelphia Police Department's website to see if there were any procedures or questions on the application that had been updated or changed since I had most recently completed it in early 2008. I came across a document titled "Instructions and Restrictions Upon Receipt of Permit" (linked here at the PPD website as a PDF.)

    I recall receiving a version of this document when I was issued my LTCF, but never noticed some of the bulleted points until now. For example:

    • "IMPORTANT: When in contact with a law enforcement officer, follow all instructions given...You MUST inform the officer IMMEDIATELY, that you are armed and possess a valid permit to carry. Then follow the officer’s instructions explicitly."


    • "When carrying your firearm you MUST also have your License to Carry, failure to do so can result in arrest for violation of Pennsylvania Crime Code 6122 and revocation of your License to Carry."


    • "Under no Circumstance should you store your weapon in a vehicle (trunk or otherwise). If your weapon is lost or stolen because of the weapon being left in a vehicle, this will result in the immediate revocation of your license to carry."
    (Emphasis not mine.)

    It sounds to me as if Charles Ramsey, the Philadelphia Police Commissioner, needs some education. Of particular note to me is the 3rd point regarding "weapons" stolen from a vehicle resulting in revocation of a PA LTCF. Do any of our resident lawyers know if this has any legal basis? It's the first I've heard of it.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    He's a flaming anti from way way back.....D.C. gun educated..... Just a matter of time before he jumps on the ban wagon.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    My comments are bold, enjoy.


    Quote Originally Posted by kcr121 View Post
    For example:

    • "IMPORTANT: When in contact with a law enforcement officer, follow all instructions given...You MUST inform the officer IMMEDIATELY, that you are armed and possess a valid permit to carry. Then follow the officer’s instructions explicitly."


    There is no statute that requires this, it is fantasy and ill advised. This is a LEO making up what he thinks the law is. I would not tell them anything, nor would I at any point waive my right to remain silent.


    • "When carrying your firearm you MUST also have your License to Carry, failure to do so can result in arrest for violation of Pennsylvania Crime Code 6122 and revocation of your License to Carry."


    This is completely incorrect. Open carrying outside of the county of Philadelphia does not require a LTCF. Again, Chuck is making it up as he goes along. These letters are garbage, worth less then the toner used to print them.

    • "Under no Circumstance should you store your weapon in a vehicle (trunk or otherwise). If your weapon is lost or stolen because of the weapon being left in a vehicle, this will result in the immediate revocation of your license to carry."
    (Emphasis not mine.)

    There is a list of law violations that will revoke ones LTCF, and this is not on it.

    It sounds to me as if Charles Ramsey, the Philadelphia Police Commissioner, needs some education. Of particular note to me is the 3rd point regarding "weapons" stolen from a vehicle resulting in revocation of a PA LTCF. Do any of our resident lawyers know if this has any legal basis? It's the first I've heard of it.
    Here is Section 6105, the violation thereof prevents an individual from keeping or bearing arms in PA, it also is a list of violations that do not allow issuance of a LTCF... getting a weapon stolen from ones car or not showing your LTCF is not listed.

    (b) Enumerated offenses.--The following offenses shall apply to subsection (a):
    Section 908 (relating to prohibited offensive weapons).
    Section 911 (relating to corrupt organizations).
    Section 912 (relating to possession of weapon on school property).
    Section 2502 (relating to murder).
    Section 2503 (relating to voluntary manslaughter).
    Section 2504 (relating to involuntary manslaughter) if the offense is based on the reckless use of a firearm.
    Section 2702 (relating to aggravated assault).
    Section 2703 (relating to assault by prisoner).
    Section 2704 (relating to assault by life prisoner).
    Section 2709.1 (relating to stalking).
    Section 2716 (relating to weapons of mass destruction).
    Section 2901 (relating to kidnapping).
    Section 2902 (relating to unlawful restraint).
    Section 2910 (relating to luring a child into a motor vehicle).
    Section 3121 (relating to rape).
    Section 3123 (relating to involuntary deviate sexual intercourse).
    Section 3125 (relating to aggravated indecent assault).
    Section 3301 (relating to arson and related offenses).
    Section 3302 (relating to causing or risking catastrophe).
    Section 3502 (relating to burglary).
    Section 3503 (relating to criminal trespass) if the offense is graded a felony of the second degree or higher.
    Section 3701 (relating to robbery).
    Section 3702 (relating to robbery of motor vehicle).
    Section 3921 (relating to theft by unlawful taking or disposition) upon conviction of the second felony offense.
    Section 3923 (relating to theft by extortion) when the offense is accompanied by threats of violence.
    Section 3925 (relating to receiving stolen property) upon conviction of the second felony offense.
    Section 4912 (relating to impersonating a public servant) if the person is impersonating a law enforcement officer.
    Section 4952 (relating to intimidation of witnesses or victims).
    Section 4953 (relating to retaliation against witness or victim).
    Section 5121 (relating to escape).
    Section 5122 (relating to weapons or implements for escape).
    Section 5501(3) (relating to riot).
    Section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training).
    Section 5516 (relating to facsimile weapons of mass destruction).
    Section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor).
    Section 6301 (relating to corruption of minors).
    Section 6302 (relating to sale or lease of weapons and explosives).
    Any offense equivalent to any of the above-enumerated offenses under the prior laws of this Commonwealth or any offense equivalent to any of the above-enumerated offenses under the statutes of any other state or of the United States.
    Join the groups protecting your rights from the fools trying to take them from you!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by kcr121 View Post
    Do any of our resident lawyers know if this has any legal basis? It's the first I've heard of it.
    I'm not one of those lawyers, but I'm certain that there is no statutory basis for revocation due to being the victim of a crime.

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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    "IMPORTANT: When in contact with a law enforcement officer, follow all instructions given...You MUST inform the officer IMMEDIATELY, that you are armed and possess a valid permit to carry. Then follow the officer’s instructions explicitly."
    This is BS. You can notify the officer if you so desire, but you DO NOT have to inform.

    "When carrying your firearm you MUST also have your License to Carry, failure to do so can result in arrest for violation of Pennsylvania Crime Code 6122 and revocation of your License to Carry."
    In Philadelphia this is true.

    "Under no Circumstance should you store your weapon in a vehicle (trunk or otherwise). If your weapon is lost or stolen because of the weapon being left in a vehicle, this will result in the immediate revocation of your license to carry."
    I agree with this to a point. If there is a secure storage box then it would be fine for TEMPORARY storage. However this is why I don't like to hear, "Can you leave it in your car?", from places that I am carrying at.
    ““Liberty is the right to choose. Freedom is the result of the right choice.””

    -Anonymous

    Jeff

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    "When carrying your firearm you MUST also have your License to Carry, failure to do so can result in arrest for violation of Pennsylvania Crime Code 6122 and revocation of your License to Carry."
    Quote Originally Posted by shooter357 View Post
    In Philadelphia this is true.
    Could you show me which section of the UFA states that?

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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by jerkin View Post
    Could you show me which section of the UFA states that?

    18 Pa.C.S. § 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia
    No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
    (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
    (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106 of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
    Philly is currently the only city of the first class in Pa. (over 1 million populace)

    In Philly, you need a license to carry firearms whether you are O.C. or C.C. when in public.
    It is you. You have all the weapons that you need. Now fight. --Sucker Punch

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    I agree. He is a DC flunky that doesnt want citizens armed. das
    [SIGPIC]

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by TaePo
    Quote Originally Posted by jerkin
    Could you show me which section of the UFA states that?
    18 Pa.C.S. § 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia
    No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
    (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
    (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106 of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
    Philly is currently the only city of the first class in Pa. (over 1 million populace)

    In Philly, you need a license to carry firearms whether you are O.C. or C.C. when in public.
    I think the question here is not whether or not you need to have a license to carry a firearm in Philly (OC or CC, the law states that you must), but whether or not you must physically have the license on your person if you are carrying and if there's any legal basis for revocation if you're licensed but don't have the actual LTCF on you. To the best of my knowledge, there is no legal basis:

    18 Pa.C.S. § 6122: Proof of license and exception
    (a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
    Quote Originally Posted by shooter357
    "Under no Circumstance should you store your weapon in a vehicle (trunk or otherwise). If your weapon is lost or stolen because of the weapon being left in a vehicle, this will result in the immediate revocation of your license to carry."
    I agree with this to a point. If there is a secure storage box then it would be fine for TEMPORARY storage. However this is why I don't like to hear, "Can you leave it in your car?", from places that I am carrying at.
    Which point do you agree with? If a firearm is stolen from you, then you are the victim of a crime regardless of whether the firearm was stolen from your vehicle or from your home. A vehicle is certainly not the most secure place to store a firearm, but there are circumstances when you must. For example - travel to a post office. There are no secure lockboxes for firearms at post offices (such as there are required to be by law at courthouses.) At least you could walk to a courthouse and check your firearm into a secure storage facility upon entry; but the lack of such facilities at a post office creates a situation where you cannot carry legally if leaving your firearm in a vehicle is "illegal" and subjects you to revocation of your LTCF.
    Last edited by kcr121; January 6th, 2010 at 09:26 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Philadelphia Police Commissioner's "suggestions" re: PA LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by shooter357 View Post
    I agree with this to a point. If there is a secure storage box then it would be fine for TEMPORARY storage. However this is why I don't like to hear, "Can you leave it in your car?", from places that I am carrying at.
    How far along is that point? You think storing a firearm in a vehicle is less than ideal, or you think victims of vehicle burglary should have their LTCFs illegally revoked?

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