When can a LEO disarm me???

[max384]

After reading through the entire thread MadamRaven & AMGibson Arrested, I still did not have the answer to when a police officer was legally allowed to disarm me. For example, in MR and AMG's case, an LEO asked to have MR's gun to check and see if it was stolen after being called to the premises for OCing (presumably). Is that legally allowed? I thought if an LEO wanted to see your weapon that you had to comply but did not have to consent.

I didn't post this question on 'MR and AMG Arrested thread because I didn't want to hijack their thread. This is not a discussion about whether MR or AMG were right, wrong, or anywhere in between. I am just looking for clarification on this issue since I have recently started OCing and would like to be sure of my rights.

Also, I did a search and didn't come up with anything except police taking weapons for 'officer safety.'

[Deadpan]

After reading through the entire thread MadamRaven & AMGibson Arrested, I still did not have the answer to when a police officer was legally allowed to disarm me.

Whenever you let them.

For example, in MR and AMG's case, an LEO asked to have MR's gun to check and see if it was stolen after being called to the premises for OCing (presumably). Is that legally allowed?

Legally??? As in the United States Constitution??? The Second Amendment? The Fourth Amendment? The PA Constitution, Section 21? Perhaps Commonwealth V. Hawkins or 5301???


Words on paper.

I thought if an LEO wanted to see your weapon that you had to comply but did not have to consent.

Compliance is consent.



Whoever is willing to impose and pay the higher price is in the right.

This post was brought to you by copious amounts of alcohol.

[TaePo]

But words on paper do have meaning, through the ballot box and the ammo box.

[LittleRedToyota]

Compliance is consent.

no, it is not. they are two different things.

to the OP...

basically, if you are being detained, the police can temporarily disarm you for their safety (see terry v. ohio) for the duration of the detainment. this does not legitimately mean they can run the serial number through any databases...but they do, and there is at least a chance the courts will say OK in any given case (and, in any particular case, there may be circumstances that really do make running the numbers legitimate).

given that the police can disarm you when you are being detained, the real question is: When can they detain you?

the answer is that they need to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that you just committed, are committing, or are about to commit a crime.

the question of whether RAS exists in a particular case is a matter of the totality of the circumstances of that case. (note that RAS is a lower standard than is probable cause...which is what is needed for an actual arrest.)

the best way to figure out whether or not you are being detained is to ask the officer "am i being detained?" or "am i free to go?" if you are not free to go, or a reasonable person would feel they were not free to go, you are being detained.

IANAL.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

When your hands are dead and cold?

[normanvin]

no, it is not. they are two different things.

to the OP...

basically, if you are being detained, the police can temporarily disarm you for their safety (see terry v. ohio) for the duration of the detainment. this does not legitimately mean they can run the serial number through any databases...but they do, and there is at least a chance the courts will say OK in any given case (and, in any particular case, there may be circumstances that really do make running the numbers legitimate).

given that they police can disarm you when you are being detained, the real question is: When can they detain you?

the answer is that they need to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that you just committed, are committing, or are about to commit a crime.

the question of whether RAS exists in a particular case is a matter of the totality of the circumstances of that case.

the best way to figure out whether or not you are being detained is to ask the officer "am i being detained?" or "am i free to go?" if you are not free to go, or a reasonable person would feel they were not free to go, you are being detained.

IANAL.

Your answer brings up the question. Is a traffic stop detainment. They have your DL insurance card, and registration. No you are not being detained but you also don't want to leave with out these documents or the ticket for that matter.

[LittleRedToyota]

Is a traffic stop detainment.

yes.

No you are not being detained

how do you figure that?

[normanvin]

yes.



how do you figure that?

Never really thought of it that way. Even if a ticket is not issued?

[Deadpan]

But words on paper do have meaning, through the ballot box and the ammo box.

That was and wasn't my point. The OP asked a hypothetical (words on paper) question about real world (strongest will wins) scenarios (OCing, the MadamRaven Incident). There are many laws, rules, rulings, amendments, etc. that govern such things, but if a LEO wants to take your gun, he will do so, unless you are willing to go all the way in refusing. There is no law or amendment to cite that will provide any kind of deus ex machina relief from an unwarranted/illegal search and siezure. Once that occurs, you can expect it to take from several minutes to several years, and from a simple visit to the police station to thousands of dollars in attorney fees to get your property and or license back, all the while becoming "that guy" to people far and wide. The avenues of redress are largely deadend streets, possibly providing eventual vindication but not satisfaction for the wrongs suffered. I may have been overly blunt, but Max384 should clarify what he is asking...an academic question: What are the laws and relevant rulings? or a real world question: What can they do? Those two questions have very different answers.

[LittleRedToyota]

Never really thought of it that way. Even if a ticket is not issued?

the ticket being issued or not is not relevant.

you are not free to drive away during a traffic stop. if you do, you will be committing an additional crime (and will be chased and arrested). thus, you are being detained.