Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default effective range?

    anyone know the effective range for a .300RUM fired from a Remington 700?


    also, what exactly is "effective range"? they talk about it all the time on all the sniper specials on the military channel but never define it.

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    Default Re: effective range?

    Quote Originally Posted by XACEX View Post
    anyone know the effective range for a .300RUM fired from a Remington 700?
    Not a clue.

    also, what exactly is "effective range"? they talk about it all the time on all the sniper specials on the military channel but never define it.
    It's typically a measure of the terminal performance of a cartridge and its platform. IOW, a Rem 700 in .223 can hit things at 700 yards but it isn't very "effective" at that distance with respect to terminal performance.
    Tony
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    Default Re: effective range?

    Quote Originally Posted by XACEX View Post
    also, what exactly is "effective range"? they talk about it all the time on all the sniper specials on the military channel but never define it.
    Maximum effective range is defined as the greatest distance at which a soldier may be expected to deliver a target hit. But there is actually a little more to it than that.

    Maximum effective range (MER) deals with both the ability to hit and the ability to destroy the target with a hit.

    Regarding the ability to hit the target, MER is frequently broken up into 'point targets' and 'area targets.' For example, the maximum effective range for a MK-19 on a point target is 1500m, and 2212m on an area target.

    That means the weapon is capable of reliably getting hits on a point target, such as an individual or a single vehicle reliably at 1500m. If you are engaging an area target such as a group of individuals, the weapon system is capable of getting rounds into the area reliably at 2212m.

    The ability to destroy the target is also factored in to MER. An M4 has a MER of 500m on a point target, and 600m on an area target. The maximum range of an M4 is 3600. At 500-600m, the bullet from an M4 still has the capability to meaningfully damage the target. When those ranges are exceeded, the velocity of the round drops off enough that it is not considered to be reliably effective. So, while the M4 could theoretically engage an area target at 3600m, by the time the bullet got there, it would just be a nuisance to the enemy because it would just be traveling at it's terminal velocity which means it would pretty much just bounce off whoever it hit.

    As a comparison, the MK19 has a maximum effective range on an area target of 2212m and a maximum range of 2212m. The reason for that is that the MK19 is a grenade launcher, so even at the very furthest distance that the gun can launch a grenade, it will still explode on impact, thus delivering the desired effect.

    Hope that helps.

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    Default Re: effective range?

    what exactly is "effective range"?
    The term "effective range" has about as many meanings as there are shooters. The "effectiveness" of any round is essentially dependent on the shooter's ability to hit what he or she is aiming at. For some folk, effective range is 50 yards; for others it may be over 1000.
    Effectiveness also depends on what "effect" you want to have. Are you hunting? If so, what are you hunting and how far away is it? You can probably kill a rabbit (if you can hit it) more easily at a greater distance than you can a Grizzly bear. Are you looking to shoot small groups on a paper target? Are you looking to ring a gong that is 1500 yards away?
    "Effective range" can mean many different things.....and if it can mean many different things, it doesn't mean anything.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete D.; January 4th, 2010 at 09:18 AM.
    “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.”Hemingway ...

  5. #5
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    Thumbs up Re: effective range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carnes View Post
    Maximum effective range is defined as ........reliably effective. So,
    Hope that helps.
    Gee Carnes, could you have been a little more specific in defining the issue? Just kidding. Wow. I see one of the reason you have so many rep points. Thanks for the great explanation.
    Smitty56

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    Default Re: effective range?

    Quote Originally Posted by XACEX View Post
    anyone know the effective range for a .300RUM fired from a Remington 700?


    also, what exactly is "effective range"? they talk about it all the time on all the sniper specials on the military channel but never define it.
    Others like TonyF and Carnes went into great detail about max effective range, and what it means. It's all a relative measure, just like some people say that the .308/7.62 NATO cartridge from a Remington 700 has an MEF of 1,000 yards, although I think more realistically for first round hits it's 800 yards. Either way, the .300 winmag and .300 RUM are quite a big step up from the 7.62 NATO; it's probably going to be somewhere around 1,200-1,400 yards, depending on who you ask. Keep in mind this will also vary greatly from shooter to shooter. I'd say realistically the .308 is an 800 yard cartridge, and if you say that about the .308 then the .300 RUM is probably more realistically 1,200 yards.

    It should be mentioned that with the right shooter, load, rifle, etc, the .300 winmag and .300 RUM are actually supersonic past a mile (1,760 yards). When a bullet starts to get trans sonic, you loose consistency and accuracy. When the bullet is supersonic, the supersonic shockwave starts at the tip of the bullet. When the bullet starts to go trans sonic (between super sonic and sub sonic), more of the bullet starts to pass through the shockwave. This makes the bullet wobble, and fly erractically, it's not really very predictable. Once the bullet passes back into the sub sonic range, they will usually straighten up and fly more predictably. Either way, most people would define "accurate" shooting in the supersonic range. What it means is that with the right shooter, conditions, and set up; it's possible to put rounds on target at a mile or more. Realistically, firing a .308 caliber weapon that distance, with multiple winds at different angles, speeds, etc; you won't do it reliably cold bore. I know quite a few people though that shoot at these distances and can get more hits than you'd probably think on a decently sized target (24" or so). Hope that gives you a bit more of an idea of what OPTIMUM conditions are. In terms of your ability to do it, you won't.

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    Default Re: effective range?

    I think this from Carnes explains it best
    The ability to destroy the target is also factored in to MER. An M4 has a MER of 500m on a point target, and 600m on an area target. The maximum range of an M4 is 3600. At 500-600m, the bullet from an M4 still has the capability to meaningfully damage the target. When those ranges are exceeded, the velocity of the round drops off enough that it is not considered to be reliably effective. So, while the M4 could theoretically engage an area target at 3600m, by the time the bullet got there, it would just be a nuisance to the enemy because it would just be traveling at it's terminal velocity which means it would pretty much just bounce off whoever it hit.
    Mentioning "it depends on the shooter" has nothing to do with it, the shooter is only able to put the shot on target, the shooter has nothing to do with what the bullet can do.
    The only veriable that effects MER is the length of the barrel, now I'm using factory ammo as an example and hand loads can cause different effects, a shorter barrel will have a lower MER and a longer barrel will have a further MER.

    XACEX I hope you find the info you need, but remember barrel length may also effect the MER of your rifle.

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    Default Re: effective range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coils View Post
    I think this from Carnes explains it best


    Mentioning "it depends on the shooter" has nothing to do with it, the shooter is only able to put the shot on target, the shooter has nothing to do with what the bullet can do.
    The only veriable that effects MER is the length of the barrel, now I'm using factory ammo as an example and hand loads can cause different effects, a shorter barrel will have a lower MER and a longer barrel will have a further MER.

    XACEX I hope you find the info you need, but remember barrel length may also effect the MER of your rifle.
    It's funny that you say carnes explanation explains it best, when he CLEARLY agrees with the rest of us. Notice he says "the ability to hit", this means that the cartridge can get there, but it also involves the shooter being able to get it there. So honestly, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

    If a shooter can't put the bullet on target, then the cartridge will NOT be effective; even if it can get there and have enough kinetic energy to do damage. You mention the only VARIABLE that effects MER is length of barrel, which is silly if you think it's the only variable that has an effect. Not all cartridges MER is changed by barrel length because some cartridge velocities are barely changed by lopping off 4" off the barrel. The fact that you mention this as the only thing effecting MER shows your limited knowledge on the subject. Not all powders are the same, and one of the things that is usually different is their optimum burn length. As long as the barrel is near the optimum burn length, you won't change the velocity of the rounds by lopping off much of the barrel; assuming that you keep it near the optimum burn length. This means that if the optimum burn length is 16" for a powder, you'll get more velocity out of a 20" barrel because it'll build up a little bit more pressure before the bullet leaves the barrel. You won't get that much extra velocity, and if that is the case, you probably won't even get a 200 fps variation between a 16" and 20" barrel. I hate to burst your bubble, but espeically with lighter projectiles 200 fps won't even extend the MEF by 100 yards once you get past 500 yards.

    I know you're going to say "well that's handloads", but that's not always the case. There are LOTS of military ammunition that have optimum burn lengths near 16-18". You also mention that a "longer barrel" will have a longer MEF, which is also an incorrect assumption. When you get a barrel that is too long for the powders optimum burn length, the bullet will actually slow down. Say that you fire a powder that has an optimum burn length of 16" in a rifle with a 26" barrel, or even longer. In that distance, there is a good change that the bullet will no longer build up more pressure before it reaches the end of the barrel. When that happens, the bullet actually slows down because of the friction between the bullet and the barrel; so then you'd have a smaller MEF because the bullet might significantly slow down before it reaches the end of the barrel. Your post just sounds like you're trying to stir stuff up, because it's obvious that the generalizations that you're making are incorrect.

    We're also not talking about a standard firearm with a middle range REM (500 yards or so). We're talking about a cartridge that can be used for long range shooting, and when that is the case, the SHOOTER plays a large role is what the cartridge can do. Not all cartridges have the same inherent long range accuracy. It's much easier to shoot a .338 Lapua accurately at 1,000 yards, than it is a .308, because the bullet is MUCH heavier so it is less effected by wind drift. For this reason, the shooter and their ability to judge the wind accurately DOES play a role in what the cartridge can do. The reason being that if you can't put hits on target, the cartridge isn't effective. So yes, the shooter does play some factor on the MEF range of a cartridge; although I'm not saying it's the only factor that plays a part. I could give you my .300 WSM that will accurately and reliably put hits on target at 1,000 yards, but it doesn't mean that the weapons MEF range will be 1,000 yards in your hands. It might not be much over 500-600 yards. You could also put that rifle in the hands of another shooter, and they might have a 1,200 MEF with my rifle because they're more experienced than I am. Either was, saying that the shooter doesn't at least play some role in the MEF of a weapon or cartridge is ignorant and incorrect.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: effective range?

    It's funny that you say carnes explanation explains it best,
    Well I didn't read all that you posted because apparently I don't know anything, even though I know I'm not an expert.
    But you might want to look at what I posted before you start twisting it around, and you can see I didn't edit anything
    I think this from Carnes explains it best
    So you can sit there and nit pick this reply too if you like.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: effective range?

    C -
    the shooter is only able to put the shot on target, the shooter has nothing to do with what the bullet can do.
    Read that over again a few times and see if you can't come up with what is inconsistent about that statement.
    Pete
    “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.”Hemingway ...

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