Becoming a marksman?

[smitty56]

To all you marksmen out there? I have read some really good posts/advice from some outstanding members out there with experience.

I have shot a lot of guns over the years but I never really worked to compete at putting the smallest group of holes, repeatedly, into a a target. I am coming to the conclusion, that with all the variables in shooting distance, at some point, a shooter begins to just shoot just one caliber, weight of bullet, with one specific charge of a specific powder in the same rifle with the same scope. After you get rid of all the other variables first, now YOU can begin to be a better marksman.
You have to get that sweet consistant combo of rifle, scope, and ammo load down before you can be the best that you can be?

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Smitty56

PS to the posters who have given the great suggestions so far.
I have a fair number of guns but not yet what I feel is the ultimate bolt gun with prime glass. I reloaded so many different calibers in the past, that now as I start large rifle reloading again, I would like to standardize on some constants in 308 and 30.06. Living here in the Philadelphia area, the longest range anywhere nearby is only 100 yards. Although it would be nice to pretend that I would like to shoot (start humor) 338 Lapua at 1400 yards or 300 WinMag to 1200 yards or so? (end humor) I do not pretend at all to tell you that I want to shoot longer than what the FBI sniper rifles are standardized for. (.308 and less than 200 yards as in a NRA Rifleman story this past fall)
Another member and I have talked about going a couple of hours north to a longer range but we haven't managed to pull it off yet.
Anyway, if I could get to point where I had one inch groups, I would be pretty happy. That is what I will be looking for in the future.
I have read some really good posts here from some of you guys who must have understood everything Carlos Hathcock did in his job. We are all lucky to have you guys post here. Thanks again.

[Tomcat088]

To all you marksmen out there? I have read some really good posts/advice from some outstanding members out there with experience.

I have shot a lot of guns over the years but I never really worked to compete at putting the smallest group of holes, repeatedly, into a a target. I am coming to the conclusion, that with all the variables in shooting distance, at some point, a shooter begins to just shoot just one caliber, weight of bullet, with one specific charge of a specific powder in the same rifle with the same scope. After you get rid of all the other variables first, now YOU can begin to be a better marksman.
You have to get that sweet consistant combo of rifle, scope, and ammo load down before you can be the best that you can be?

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Smitty56

I think this is a really good question Smitty, very good question. I don't know if I have a "correct" answer, because I think that it's a little bit dependent on a few things. I think that one of the first things it's dependent upon is what your expecations are. Do you want to shoot groups that are .25" or less, are we talking about consistent 1" groups or less, etc? For people, shooting "tiny groups" can mean different things. Lots of BR guys that shoot 100-300 yards can't STAND for a group to be over .2" or so, although for tactical shooters, consistent .5" groups at 100 yards is more than acceptable.

I want to stress, and I really mean STRESS, that the MOST important factor of shooting accurately is the SHOOTER. If you do not have the fundamentals mastered and can do them consistently, you will NEVER print small groups reliably. You can do it once in a blue moon or get lucky, but you'll never truly be a marksman. This means that you MUST master "natural point of aim", breathe control, trigger control, proper sight techniques, rock solid positions, etc. Since you're talking about long range shooting, for most people that means optics are involved. That also means that you will need to learn how to eliminate parallax error, consistent cheek weld, etc.

Having a good rig can help you in this venture, but it's not necessary to "learn". You will NOT be shooting long range to begin with, because the fundamentals have to be mastered, you do that up close, even with rimfires. At closer ranges, the reload isn't as important as it is shooting long range. So that means you don't have to be so meticulous, and doing so will actually be a waste of time because until you master the basics, you won't be able to keep up with your ammo.

Eventually though, when you get the fundamentals mastered, you'll start working on "the load" for that rifle. Once you find one that shoots well, and it'll need to shoot well long range; some reloads print the best at 100 yards, but at 300 yards a different reload that didn't quite print as well at 100 will print better at 300. Long range changes a LOT. Eventually you'll find that load, and you'll start to shoot it, and pretty much only it. This will allow you to learn the "dope" for that load, and it's where you'll learn one of the most important things (besides fundamentals) for shooting LR, and that's learning to read the wind. I personally think it's best not to be changing loads when learning wind, that way you know what the load does and that it works, it's all on you.

Eventually after you've learned the fundamentals, you'll spread out a little bit. You'll start having a "hunting load" and a "target load", or you might have a "long range" load, and a lighter "short/mid range" load. There's lots of different variations of this idea, but for the most part, you'll have a limited selection of loads, but you'll know EXACTLY what each of them does at a particular range. Once you've mastered the fundamentals, you'll be able to pretty much shoot any rifles well at short range; it won't matter what it is. The main factor after that will be the setup, accuracy expectations, and if the dope is known. If you have lots of rifles that you know the dope for, you can shoot them all well; most people end up with a couple of favorites that they always shoot. This is the approach that works best for me, shoot 1 or 2 rifles and shoot them all the time RELIGIOUSLY. The reason I take this approach is this, eventually you develop an "instinct" and "feel" for the rifle and load. You will begin to instictively know what your load will do at what distances, and changing wind conditions. ESPECIALLY when shooting UKD (unknown distances), it's VERY important to have that feel with your rifle. If you start changing calibers, with lots of different loads; you'll shoot all the rifles well, but you won't ever MASTER one rifle.

Mastering that one rifle is what most LR shooters want, and they add in others for a little different "feel" and to keep things interesting. The rest just sit in the safe and take up space, so most people end up getting rid of them and spending the money on good optics and "toys" for the few that they do have. Either way, I do want to stress that the SHOOTER is the main variable in the equation. I can give any good shooter my rifle, with the dope for the distances, and they will make hits with it; it make take some very mild adjustments to my dope, but it won't take much. It's all about the fundamentals to be a marksman, when you start shooting long range it gets to be about keep doing the fundamentals, have a consistent load, and reading wind. You can learn the fundamentals with a good .22 and quality ammunition at 50-100 yards, some of the best trigger time is behind rimfires. You don't train in flinches, you can't blame recoil, and you can do it all day long for cheap (relatively), and it's not punishing to do it.

[Xringshooter]

Tomcat really did giove you good advice.

Not matter how good the equipment, it is junk if the person behind it doesn't know what to do with it. It doesn't matter how the gun shoots, you need to correctly learn the fundamentals and then practice, practice and practice some more. A good shooter that can act as a coach is also a big plus. That person can and will see the little things that you are doing and help you correct your techniques. You, by yourself, can never see what you might be doing incorrectly, but a good coach will spot it easily.

When I was shooting competitively (handguns) I shot between 700 and 1000 rounds per week and had a coach that was experienced in the discipline I was shooting. He could spot things I was doing wrong and I wasn't even aware I was doing them.

Once you have gotten the techniques down pat, then you will see what the next step will be, be it a upgrade of equipment, reloading your ammo to tailor them to your style, or more training at an upgraded training facility.

[Mush]

Remember Smitty that the USA had some "Marksman" during the Revolution (1776) that fired Kentucky (Pennsylvania) long Rifles with out a scope with black powder and flintlock. As posted, it is the shooter more than the equipment that hits the mark. Find yourself some coaching/instruction and start with a 22 rimfire (much cheaper to shoot than centerfire). It is the range time with proper coaching that can make you a marksman.

I also know some good deer hunters that bring home the meat but only shoot "minute of pie pan". It depends on what you want to do with the skill.

[indianjack]

Its like any other skill, pratice, pratice, pratice. You might get discourged because progess is slow, then one day it will "just click". Good luck.

[Tim Ault]

Your expectations are realistic of 1 moa out to two hundred yds, and very do able without a huge investment either which is always a good thing. I think "marksmanship" will mean different things to different shooters. But to me it boils down to being able to hit your target consistantly at any reasonable range known or unknown from any position and in any condition. This means that your rifle and load must be consistand and accurate ,hot or cold, wet or dry Same with you the shooter. The rifle and the load are the easy part of the equation.As others have stated it takes alot of trigger time to get to that point .To some it comes easy and almost naturally ,some require months and yrs of practice and thousands of rds of ammo fired in practice.My best advice to you or anyone is once you have a accurate rifle load combo that you have confidence in is to get away from the shooting bench. Start shooting from different positions such as prone,kneeling,sitting standing ect.get out of your comfort zone. Shoot in weather conditions that make it difficult to concentrate. As others have stated a accurate 22 rifle (with match quality ammo) similar in weight and size to your main rifle is probably the best training tool there is .Just shoot at scaled down targets be it a bullseye ,deer, humanoid ect. Practice how you'll shoot, If you plan on shooting from field positions ,practice from those positions.


Tim

[AR-15 Outlaw]

i definatly agree a coach would be the best tool ever. i've also shot guns for a long time but just recently started measuring groups and trying to connect the dots. i shoot at the local range about 2 days a week when weather permits doing 3 shot groups at 100 yds. the thing is i do it alone, teaching myself with no coach so i have no way of knowing if im doing something counter productive and the only way i know if im messing up or improving is the size of the grops that day. it can be done without a coach but a coach would definatly make it cheaper and easier. all in all the trigger time is definatly helping and in the past 2-3 months i've went from shooting 1"-1.5" groups down to averaging between .45"-.75" groups. if only i could reload shells as fast as i could shoot them lol to be able to shoot those 2 days a week, with my current reloading setup i need to spend a couple hours reloading 3 days a week with a lee hand press (no not the slap and pound one) and a digital grain scale

[Ronnies111]

To all you marksmen out there? I have read some really good posts/advice from some outstanding members out there with experience.

I have shot a lot of guns over the years but I never really worked to compete at putting the smallest group of holes, repeatedly, into a a target. I am coming to the conclusion, that with all the variables in shooting distance, at some point, a shooter begins to just shoot just one caliber, weight of bullet, with one specific charge of a specific powder in the same rifle with the same scope. After you get rid of all the other variables first, now YOU can begin to be a better marksman.
You have to get that sweet consistant combo of rifle, scope, and ammo load down before you can be the best that you can be?

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Smitty56

PS to the posters who have given the great suggestions so far.
I have a fair number of guns but not yet what I feel is the ultimate bolt gun with prime glass. I reloaded so many different calibers in the past, that now as I start large rifle reloading again, I would like to standardize on some constants in 308 and 30.06. Living here in the Philadelphia area, the longest range anywhere nearby is only 100 yards. Although it would be nice to pretend that I would like to shoot (start humor) 338 Lapua at 1400 yards or 300 WinMag to 1200 yards or so? (end humor) I do not pretend at all to tell you that I want to shoot longer than what the FBI sniper rifles are standardized for. (.308 and less than 200 yards as in a NRA Rifleman story this past fall)
Another member and I have talked about going a couple of hours north to a longer range but we haven't managed to pull it off yet.
Anyway, if I could get to point where I had one inch groups, I would be pretty happy. That is what I will be looking for in the future.
I have read some really good posts here from some of you guys who must have understood everything Carlos Hathcock did in his job. We are all lucky to have you guys post here. Thanks again.

When I first get a rifle I shoot just to see how small of a group it's capable of. Then I shoot real world senerio's, which would be setting up target's (what ever distance) & practice how fast I can take out multiple target's. My goal is simple..Accurate & fast, with minimum sight time. I shoot for 1 to 2 sec. aiming per target with a semi auto. Now a bolt rifle, that's another post:-)

[brian]

it's simple, aim small, miss small.

[Rundownfid]

Smitty56
If you are truly interested in learning to shoot a rifle well you are not in a terrible place. langhornerodandgunclub.org/ Langhorn is just North of the Turnpike. Just west of you in Gap is the range for the New Holland Rifle club, with I believe a 300 yd range.

Of course if you want to shoot 1000 yds you'd have to go to Mifflin Co, just out side Lewistown (nearly to State College). Pa has a lot of shooting opportunities. Could I suggest an Appleseed Shoot? There for a mere $60 or so you get two full days of instruction on the fundamentals of rifle shooting. As a bonus a little American History is thrown in. The nearest one to you I know of is in Manheim, just North of Lancaster, probably less than 1 1/2hrs http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php.

Best wishes in your attempt to become a better rifleman, it is a worthy American goal.