Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Horsham, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
    Posts
    902
    Rep Power
    964

    Default Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    The primary (and hopefully) only use of my pistol now, is for target. I don't carry yet, and may not ever. I've been buying exclusively "practice"/"target" ammo (9mm). In the event that I ever need my weapon in a home defense situation, is there any reason to believe that such ammo won't get the job done?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    1,303
    Rep Power
    786333

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    It depends on how well you do your part. But you'd always be better off with hollow points, not only for stopping power, but to reduce overpenetration even WHEN you do your part.

    Perhaps you can pick up a couple boxes of Federal HST or Gold Dots. They're only about $20-25 per box of 50, a little more than "practice ammo" but not terribly so, so you can use a box at the range to make sure you gun feeds them well. Then just keep a spare magazine loaded with it for when you're not at the range. All in all, an extra $10-20 over what you'd probably spend anyway for target shooting anyway, and you've got a little more piece of mind.
    Last edited by rikilii; January 1st, 2010 at 01:13 PM.
    Almost a LIB .... ertarian

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Henryville, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
    Posts
    1,692
    Rep Power
    215831

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    FMJ ammo will do the job but hollowpoint does it better. If it was a SHTF scenarion I would not throw my ammo away because it was not a hollowpoint but when I have the ability to make a choice it would always be hollowpoints from a reputable manufacturer and if possible their "Law Enforcement" line. This gives you the best hollowpoint design loaded with low flash powder and very good quality control.

    The hollowpoint will generally expand making itself bigger. It is also a hotly discussed topic but many believe the expansion creates an "energy dump" causing more damage to your assailant. Personally I like the reduced chance of the round exiting a person and still being a liability.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Fleetwood, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Posts
    870
    Rep Power
    34790

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    Your FMJs in 9 mm. may be great for practice. However, the 9 mm. fmj has its issues when it comes to stopping power - namely that it has far less of it than other semiauto calibers (such as .45 ACP). Ask anyone coming back from the Sandbox how their Beretta stacked up against the older 1911s from a stopping power standpoint.

    If you're going to carry 9 mm. for self-defense, then you'd better be packing engineered JHP bullets, preferably 147-grain or 124-grain in +p. Good choices are as follows:

    Winchester Black Talon (GunBroker only)
    Winchester Ranger SXT (being phased out, grab while you can) law enforcement grade
    Federal HST (Hydra-Shok) law-enforcement grade
    Speer Gold Dot
    Remington Golden Saber

    The Black Talon and SXT bullets are particularly badass. They turn into miniature pinwheels of death after penetrating the target. Wound channels are huge and grotesque. Virtually all of the bullet energy is dumped into the target (criminal scumbag), and if all goes according to plan, that energy transfer is enough to shut down the aforementioned scumbag's nervous system (the hydrostatic shock effect), stopping them dead in their tracks.
    These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for. LMAO

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Horsham, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
    Posts
    902
    Rep Power
    964

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    Thanks folks. Another question answered perfectly and quickly. If I ultimately choose to carry, it won't be this CZ-75b. It's just too big. I'll have lots to consider and choices to make at that time, but for now, the CZ is a range/home defense weapon. Your points remain valid though. Hollow points it is.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Posts
    17,641
    Rep Power
    21474870

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
    Your FMJs in 9 mm. may be great for practice. However, the 9 mm. fmj has its issues when it comes to stopping power - namely that it has far less of it than other semiauto calibers (such as .45 ACP). Ask anyone coming back from the Sandbox how their Beretta stacked up against the older 1911s from a stopping power standpoint.

    If you're going to carry 9 mm. for self-defense, then you'd better be packing engineered JHP bullets, preferably 147-grain or 124-grain in +p. Good choices are as follows:

    Winchester Black Talon (GunBroker only)
    Winchester Ranger SXT (being phased out, grab while you can) law enforcement grade
    Federal HST (Hydra-Shok) law-enforcement grade
    Speer Gold Dot
    Remington Golden Saber

    The Black Talon and SXT bullets are particularly badass. They turn into miniature pinwheels of death after penetrating the target. Wound channels are huge and grotesque. Virtually all of the bullet energy is dumped into the target (criminal scumbag), and if all goes according to plan, that energy transfer is enough to shut down the aforementioned scumbag's nervous system (the hydrostatic shock effect), stopping them dead in their tracks.
    Opinions vary, but I'm going to have to disagree with most of this. Federal HSTs are NOT Hydra-Shocks. And they are far superior to both Black Talons and SXTs, which are both dated designs. And there's probably little or no hydrostatic shock with 9mm or most other service pistol calibers due to low velocity. Certainly SXTs and Black Talons have no magical "dead in their tracks" effect.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Fleetwood, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Posts
    870
    Rep Power
    34790

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Opinions vary, but I'm going to have to disagree with most of this.
    Federal HSTs are NOT Hydra-Shocks.
    Never said they were. For the most part you could swap 147-grain HST for Hydra-Shok and have more or less the same stopping power.

    Hydra-shok is older technology and more expensive to implement. HST is less expensive and newer, with a slight advantage in knockdown power.

    Interestingly, HST makes use of "death petal" geometry made popular by the Ranger SXT and Black Talon series, the Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, et. al.

    And they are far superior to both Black Talons and SXTs, which are both dated designs.
    Despite their status as "dated" the Black Talon and SXTs have a history of taking down bad guys, and that history is longer than the HST. The current iteration of the SXT penetrates deeper into tissue than a comparable HST - check out the ballistics tests if you disbelieve.

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

    And there's probably little or no hydrostatic shock with 9mm or most other service pistol calibers due to low velocity. Certainly SXTs and Black Talons have no magical "dead in their tracks" effect.
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3053.pdf

    The 147-grain 9-para normally produces a pressure wave of around 300-350 PSI, which is enough to cause the hydrostatic effect, as illustrated in figure 1.

    You are, of course, correct in stating that there is no magical "stop dead" affect in the real world, which is why I prefaced with "if everything goes according to plan". Real-world results depend on the size of the criminal scumbag and shot placement relative to the spinal column.
    These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for. LMAO

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Posts
    17,641
    Rep Power
    21474870

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
    Never said they were.
    You said this:

    "Federal HST (Hydra-Shok) law-enforcement grade"

    That suggested to me you thought they were the same.

    For the most part you could swap 147-grain HST for Hydra-Shok and have more or less the same stopping power.
    Based on gel tests, I strongly disagree. HST is far superior. But, where it counts, in the real world, probably splitting hairs at this point.

    Interestingly, HST makes use of "death petal" geometry made popular by the Ranger SXT and Black Talon series, the Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, et. al.
    Would that be "miniature pinwheels of death" technology? I mean, come on, that was a little silly. Of course the sharp edges help open permanent cavity and as far as I know this did indeed originate with Black Talon.

    Despite their status as "dated" the Black Talon and SXTs have a history of taking down bad guys, and that history is longer than the HST.
    Ball has taken a lot more with a much longer history.

    The current iteration of the SXT penetrates deeper into tissue than a comparable HST - check out the ballistics tests if you disbelieve.
    I've checked them out extensively. SXT opens less reliably and usually to a smaller diameter. Especially after passing through clothing.

    The 147-grain 9-para normally produces a pressure wave of around 300-350 PSI, which is enough to cause the hydrostatic effect, as illustrated in figure 1.
    Going to have to look into that one further, thanks.

    You are, of course, correct in stating that there is no magical "stop dead" affect in the real world, which is why I prefaced with "if everything goes according to plan". Real-world results depend on the size of the criminal scumbag and shot placement relative to the spinal column.
    You mean, it's about shot placement? In your original post you made it sound like it was a property of Black Talon and SXT ammo.
    Last edited by ungawa; January 1st, 2010 at 07:20 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Clarks Summit, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,315
    Rep Power
    215615

    Default Re: Practice Ammo vs Defensive Ammo

    When it comes to self-defense, well placed 30gr. .22 LR LRN is infinitely better than a 240gr. .44 Magnum SJHP that misses the target entirely. Shot placement is, hands down, the most important factor when shooting for self-defense.

    In my humble opinion - you should 'carry' (or: 'use in a self defense situation') whatever ammunition that you target practice with. Why? Because that's what you've been 'training' yourself to hit your target with.

    I don't care what anyone says - even though I can't speak from personal experience, there is plenty of empirical evidence to support the fact that: getting shot with any caliber bullet of any design from a firearm is a very unpleasant thing. I don't know about you - but if I got shot with *any* caliber - especially in my torso - I probably wouldn't feel much like fighting anymore and I am pretty sure I'd want to get to a hospital real quick!

    My recommendation (to anyone who asks) for a "home defense" weapon is a 12 Ga. shotgun; further, I recomend pump-action. And, of course, I'd recomend that you take that shotgun to the range and shoot the heck out of it with whatever ammo you're gonna keep it loaded with (I'd recomend 0 or 00 buckshot).

    But, as I said at the top - if you *only* practiced with 30gr. .22 LR ammo in a .22 handgun, and you can put that round COM on the target during practice - every time - then that's the weapon/ammo that you should grab for self defense should (G-d forbid) the need ever arise.

    So - lastly, is hollow point ammunition (especially +P, if your firearm can handle it), technically speaking, more efficient? Yes - absolutely it is. Therefore, I would recomend that (if you think you ever might need to use your firearm for self defense) should you definitely switch from standard 'military style' ammo you now practice with to something with a superior design to practice with. Or, at the very least, make the majority of the ammunition that you use in 'target practice' the best (most 'efficient'/powerful - and, don't forget: reliable) stuff you can find that your pistol can handle.
    .
    Last edited by Bruce; January 1st, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
    Cogito, ergo armatus sum.
    ...Say that to my face.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: September 1st, 2009, 05:25 PM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: May 25th, 2009, 10:45 PM
  3. 9mm defensive ammo test
    By Dextorg in forum General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: December 3rd, 2008, 02:36 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 31st, 2008, 12:17 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •