Concern: HK USP45c Trigger Problem

[echo7tango]

While taking a CCW class at an outdoor range, my wife in the lane next to me was shooting my HI USP 45 compact when the trigger failed. I was shooting my Smith at the time, so I don't know exactly what happened but when I inspected the weapon (after of course clearing it) I found the trigger would not send the hammer fully home onto the firing pin. In SA mode the trigger releases and then catches the hammer such that the hammer stops before hitting the firing pin and the hammer never falls fully home. I cannot clear or resolve this problem.

Has anyone ever had or heard of this type of problem?

I just called the Service Dep't and they said they're in the middle of a large military contract and I need to wait and call them back in two weeks, at which time they'll issue a repair number and then I can ship it in for what should be a warranty repair.

The guy said it's probably a simple fix, but I am concerned because any weapons failure, especially a semi-permanent one that cannot be cleared/rectified while firing, with a supposedly quality weapon like HK, well, that's a major problem to me.

This is my only HK and I bought it about two years ago (approx. 1,500 rounds through it so it is still quite new) because my brother-in-law has a Mark 23 and told me about HK's stellar reputation for reliability. I have a Ruger and a Smith, and my wife has a Taurus, and none of those weapons has ever given us any problems.

I am very concerned about this. My HK was not inexpensive.

[adymond]

I haven't had this problem with my USP .45c, but I will suggest that you take a deep breath. Call them back and get the repair number and get the trigger fixed. I don't think this is normal for an HK.

I understand the concern as my HK is my primary carry weapon. Though knowing that nothing is 100% I have a BUG. I am sure if you look hard enough you will even find a Block . . . er . . . um . . . I mean Glock that has a failure despite their reputation for reliability. It happens unfortunately. You just seem to be really getting worked up over it.

I would however be sort of pissed about the idea that I have to call back when a product needs repaired due to the companies work load. That's sort of bullshit IMO.

[marinville]

Alright, I've (still) been thinking about this since I first read it and (now) I believe I've got it. Realistically, it doesn't matter much because its not something you are going to be able to fix yourself without the proper replacement parts, but I digress.

I will say first that I am not an armorer. I do however have a great interest in understanding how my firearms function, and I have fully disassembled my USP a number of times.

Your post actually helped me realize I need to better understand how my USP functions, so I cleared and field stripped it, then I worked the action a few hundred times and stared at the moving parts. I believe I've got the answer.

The Following is my hypothesis:

(If you only want the cliff notes, just read the bold)

If you are looking at your field stripped pistol's frame from above (muzzle out) you will notice four distinct parts directly in front of the hammer. From left they are sear, catch, control latch, and disconnector.

The control latch is what is physically contacted by the trigger bar when the trigger is pulled. It is connected to the catch by a nipple in the catch which rests in an indentation in the control latch. Because of this, when the control latch moves the catch moves also.

The sear holds the hammer in its cocked position and then releases the hammer when engaged (indirectly) by the trigger bar. There is a small pin at the bottom right of the sear (which can not be seen without detail stripping the pistol) called the sear pin. This pin connects the sear to the catch and control latch so that when they move the sear moves also.

The catch is what will catch the hammer when you decock the gun. In its natural position it prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin. When engaged by the control latch, it moves from its natural position and the hammer is free to contact the firing pin.

The catch in your pistol is unable to move from its natural position because the nipple which connects it to the control latch is sheared off, therefore when the trigger bar engages the control latch the sear releases the hammer, but the catch does not move out of the way and the hammer can not fully fall and contact the firing pin.


BTW: I notice that you cross posted this on hk pro forum. I read big bore's response, wherein he mentioned that he believed the problem to be one concerning the pistol being stuck on decock. I would disagree.

I understand where he is coming from, but I don't believe he is correct.

Normally, when you decock the pistol, the sear releases the hammer but the catch is not allowed to move, therefore the hammer can not strike the firing pin. It only falls until it contacts the catch, then its forward progress is stopped.

This is a similar situation to the one you presented, in that the catch is stopping the hammer's forward progress. IMO, this is why he believes the gun is stuck on decock. However, I preformed an experiment wherein I held the decock down on my field stripped pistol and worked the trigger, and I found that when the pistol is held in decock the hammer can not fully cock and will never drop at all until the trigger is released.

That did not appear to correspond with the problem you were having, because your hammer will fall but be stopped by the catch, but if the pistol was stuck in decock, the hammer wouldn't fall in the first place.

Because of this experiment, I disagree with his conclusion that the gun is stuck in decock mode.




And with that I'm (finally) through, and I apologize that I could not get my point across in a more concise manner. (or without editing my post a hundred times)

Oh, and I (still) think its a crock that HK is putting you on hold.

[marinville]

MY ABOVE POST HAS BEEN EDITED FOR THE FINAL TIME.



(by the way: There are two things I didn't mention in the above post because they were not related to your problem, but I feel like they are worth mentioning since I am discussing the internals of the pistol.

1. the purpose of the disconnector is to prevent the trigger bar from engaging the control latch (and therefore causing the pistol to fire) when the slide is out of battery. Press the disconnector down and you can see that the trigger bar becomes impotent. This downward press is accomplished by the lowered surface of the slide in all but the place the disconnector rests when the slide is completely in battery.

2. Apart from its other duties, the control latch also functions to disengage the firing pin saftey.




FIN

[echo7tango]

Thanks for the excellent details and descriptions, marinville. Reading that and looking at my frame and working the trigger and seeing what happens, I can see that the catch is preventing the hammer from falling all the way, and it cannot move out of the hammer's way. I also tried working the trigger and holding the decocker down and it behaved just as you said, the hammer cannot fully cock. I, too, do not think the gun is stuck in decock mode. The detent plate definitely moves with the decock lever.

Without detail stripping the gun I am pretty sure your thorough description is accurate. I don't want to detail strip the gun because I will send it to HK and want it fixed under warranty. I'm in no rush and can wait for the shipping to/from GA. I'll do the detail strip after I get it back and they confirm what happened, and why.

I will call them back tomorrow, push this issue, and move forward with shipping the gun to them.

I'll post an update after HK is done fixing the problem and telling me what caused it.

Thanks again. Happy New Year.

[adymond]

Thanks for the excellent details and descriptions, marinville. Reading that and looking at my frame and working the trigger and seeing what happens, I can see that the catch is preventing the hammer from falling all the way, and it cannot move out of the hammer's way. I also tried working the trigger and holding the decocker down and it behaved just as you said, the hammer cannot fully cock. I, too, do not think the gun is stuck in decock mode. The detent plate definitely moves with the decock lever.

Without detail stripping the gun I am pretty sure your thorough description is accurate. I don't want to detail strip the gun because I will send it to HK and want it fixed under warranty. I'm in no rush and can wait for the shipping to/from GA. I'll do the detail strip after I get it back and they confirm what happened, and why.

I will call them back tomorrow, push this issue, and move forward with shipping the gun to them.

I'll post an update after HK is done fixing the problem and telling me what caused it.

Thanks again. Happy New Year.

As a fellow HK owner please push them to fix this for you and don't let them tell you to wait. Like I said I understand the concern over a malfunction, but it is bound to happen. To me it's more important how a company will fix the problem.

[echo7tango]

Yes, will do. I called them today but they're closed for the New Year. I'll call them next week. Someone suggested I talk to a Travis, so I'll try that first.

[JoeyBones]

Yes, will do. I called them today but they're closed for the New Year. I'll call them next week. Someone suggested I talk to a Travis, so I'll try that first.

Travis Teague is the man - However, I heard several months ago that he left to go work for FNH, I believe (or perhpas CZ-USA).... He was the senior technician over at HK for quite some time, I believe, and he performed excellent warranty work on my EDC P7M8... Hopefully he is still at HK - Your USP would be in great hands with him...

Let us know how it works out for you....

Regards,

Bones

[echo7tango]

He's apparently still there. When I dialed his extension yesterday his VM greeting said it was him. I didn't leave a message. I'll call next week when the office is opened. It's nice to know he's still there and I hope he can fix my compact.

[echo7tango]

(I've cross-posted in a couple of other sites)

HK fixed it under warranty. They received it two days ago, fixed it yesterday and I received it today, so it was a quick fix and turnaround. The armorer said it was a "freak thing", not caused by anything he's aware of: the end closest to the hammer broke off.

How does this happen? I hope I'm not inadvertently doing something to cause this.

Here's an unbroken trigger bar, for comparison:
1 trigger bar, complete, picture from web page.jpg

Here's mine, broken at the left end:
2 my broken trigger bar.jpg

The broken end:
3 my broken trigger bar.jpg

The trigger bar sits in the right side of the gun:
4 my repaired trigger bar in USPc.jpg

It took me a while to locate it, here are arrows for those like me who aren't armorers:
5 my repaired trigger bar in USPc.jpg