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Thread: H&R Firearms
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March 18th, 2008, 01:14 PM #51
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March 18th, 2008, 01:30 PM #52
Re: H&R Firearms
With that serial number, your Single Action Sportsman (Model 199) is a 2nd Variation and made sometime between 1933 and 1936. It should have a frame mounted firing pin, two piece checkered walnut grip panels and a gold dot insert in the front sight. The highest 2nd Var. I have in my collection is S14300 and the lowest 3rd Variation (different grip frame shape and one piece grip, with a firing pin fixed to the nose of the hammer) is S19874 so, I'm leaning towards late 1933- early -34 for yours. As you said, for this Model the 'S' stands for single action; for the Model 999 Double Action - the pre 1940 serial numbers were preceded by 'D'. The list that Bloomautomatic posted is correct for revolvers made AFTER 1940.
Production of this model ceased around 1942, but apparently there was remaining inventory - as this model was included in several post WW2 catalogues, all bearing earlier serial numbers.Jim Hauff H&R Collector In memory of my friends Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie.
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March 18th, 2008, 01:44 PM #53
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March 18th, 2008, 08:41 PM #54Junior Member
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Re: H&R Firearms
Thank you for the quick responses. 32 Magnum, thank you so much. It does have the frame mounted firing pin, the gold dot insert, but it has the one piece grip with one flat head screw that attaches it from the rear. Could it have been added later or if not possibly a transition piece from between the 2nd and 3rd Variation?
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March 18th, 2008, 11:58 PM #55
Re: H&R Firearms
Shootinblanks -
Whoa! We need to do a little studying on this one - it seems to be an anomoly. If you would, pull the grip and check the serial number stamped into the left side of the grip frame. Then pull the cylinder - your's should have a cylinder release lever on the right hand side of the frame, just push the knurled end in and pull the cylinder off of the arbor - you may have to lift the barrel latch so you don't scratch the cylinder - there may be a retainer hook on the bottom of the latch arm. Under the top strap/latch there should also be a serial number stamped. Do those numbers match with what is stamped on the front of the grip strap? By the way, what are they? H&R never threw anything away. I've got a bunch of "anomolies" in my collection - as you said "transitions", yours could very well be such, but lets compare the serial numbers in those three locations first. ALSO, there should be two or three digits stamped into the breech face of the cylinder and also on the extractor star - these digits should match each other and should be the last three digits of the s/n found under the top strap. Now we're having some fun! IF YOUR VISION IS NOT SO GOOD, GET AN INEXPENSIVE 3X OR 4X MAGNIFIER AT THE DRUG STORE. I have four of them, can't be without one when working on guns and can't see well enough to find one if I misplace it.Last edited by 32 Magnum; March 19th, 2008 at 12:07 AM.
Jim Hauff H&R Collector In memory of my friends Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie.
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March 19th, 2008, 08:37 AM #56Junior Member
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Re: H&R Firearms
All serial numbers match, pistol's front grip says S116XX, the grip under the wooden grip...left side also says 116XX (no 'S'). The cylinder face has 6XX on the outer edge, and 6XX along the inner extractor edge. When hinged up with the cylinder out it also has 6XX on the inner top. Interestingly enough upon taking off the grip I see the metal underneath looks like a crescent moon shape (strange considering the grip's flat bottom...though inside the grip it is carved to fit it).
EDIT: As I reassembled the pistol, I see that on the cylinder is "PAT. 1904730", nothing else is listed. Patent was issued April 18, 1933.Last edited by ShootinBlanks; March 19th, 2008 at 08:40 AM.
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March 19th, 2008, 09:36 AM #57
Re: H&R Firearms
Interesting patent. It refers to having the case heads recessed into the face of the cylinder. I think the Ruger Single Six has the same design, and good ol' Harrington came up with it!
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...6RS=PN/1904730
If you want to view it, you'll need to have a TIFF viewer installed such as alternatiff.
Vincewww.bloomautomatic.com - Golf Ball Launchers for AR-15, SKS, FAL, and many others
www.bloomautomatic.com/lbsc - Long Branch Sportsman's Club, Long Branch, PA
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March 19th, 2008, 07:25 PM #58
Re: H&R Firearms
Well, you haven't made this any easier - it looks that you have a "transition" piece - one made up of older parts (the top half) assembled on the parts for a newer variation (the lower half.) The "problem" is that the serial number of your piece does not follow in sequence with what seemed to be an orderly progression, based upon several hundred serial numbers. The only thing I can come up with, and it is edjucated speculation at best, is that the top was a left over (found in storage) or returned to factory 2nd Variation assembly and was married up with a 3rd Variation lower. The "bird's head shaped grip frame" was inventented and patented by H&R and is known as the "Rice frame" - after the H&R superintendent of works who invented it. The idea with this frame, which was applied to ALL H&R handguns in the 1935 to 1936 era, was to allow the use of up to 14 different grips configurations on any or all of their handguns. This "Rice" frame was in use up to 1952 - 53, when it was replaced by the "square butt" frame, requiring two grip panels.
Getting back to the serial number: for some reason, known only to themselves, H&R employed the serial number stamped under the top strap (on hinged frame revolvers of all types) as the primary number. All H&R handguns during this era, were individually fitted and assembled by a craftsman - so parts interchangeability is a bit of a problem without doing some hand fitting - and each individual piece was therefore marked with some part or all of the serial number/assembly number to allow final assembly after final finishing of the separate parts. So, I'm thinking that the upper was found, probably a bunch of them, after the start of production of the new "Rice" frames and they were then fitted together to make a single or a bunch of "anomolies". Since the upper had been serial numbered, previously, its serial number was continued on with the lower frame - throwing it out of time frame sequence BUT making for a very interesting piece.
Another "anomoly" - the cylinder for the 3rd Variation should have TWO patent dates stamped into it. Congratulations - you have a "weirdo" hand gun, not the first and not the last to come from an arms manufacturer. As I stated before - they don't throw anything away, they find a way to use it.
I hope you are as confused as I am. LOLJim Hauff H&R Collector In memory of my friends Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie.
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March 19th, 2008, 08:01 PM #59Junior Member
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Re: H&R Firearms
Hello, Magnum!! Remember the H&R .32 S&WL snubby(National Gun Forum)?I invite you to join the oklahomashooters.com forum. I am honored that I was allowed to join your great forum, but I know that Pennsylvanians are knowledgeable gun people and I am more of a taker than a giver. LOL
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March 19th, 2008, 10:52 PM #60Junior Member
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Re: H&R Firearms
Fully Confused, but quite happy with the result. It's as if it was made for it, so I'm very happy. Thank you for your insight. Perhaps next we'll tackle my 13 year old NEF Shotgun, lol. Thank you Magnum.
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