Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 35
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    PGH, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    7,483
    Rep Power
    253711

    Default Airsoft as a training aid

    well, the weather the last couple days have conspired against me getting out to the range as I would have liked to this weekend.

    So I decided to bring out the Airsoft and do some practice at home.

    I have found it really useful, usually I do presentations from cover. I set up targets and engage them from different positions and angles.

    I have a gas blowback TM MCU1911. Its really quite nice, all controls work like a real 1911, fits my holster with some tension adjustment, has a real 1911 trigger pull, weighted grips and with mag almost weighs correct. It shoots POA inside ~10-15 yards and can shoot one hole groups at 7 yards with ease.

    Today I took some large paper blanks I had things shipped in. I can draw silohettes about USPSA size on them with a sharpie. I draw just the torso outline, and put small dots to mark off a downward (about 3" sides) triangle on the head and circle on the chest about 8" diameter. I cant really see these when I step back from the target. Then I scribble across the whole paper lightly at random. So I dont have any distict aiming spots, but can make out the silohette.

    I took a target and set it up down a hallway, hall is about 21 feet long. I did some draws and shots to both body and head from forwards, backwards, walking away, and both sides.
    Then I did some up close from retention and retreating into side rooms and down hallway.
    Then I practiced clearing the corners from down the hall, both left and right.

    Being right handed clearing to my right is OK, but I find it difficult to clear to the left. I know a lot of people switch off and shoot left handed to clear to the left but Im not sure if I am comfortable switching a handgun from one hand to the other if I ever have an intruder in my house. Maybe thats fodder for a different discussion though, and not on topic for this thread.

    I have used airsoft during FOF as well.

    I believe getting a quality airsoft that matches your carry gun is a great tool for practice. And after the initial cost there is virtually no additional cost, and it can be done at home when convienant.
    another good addition to dry fire practice.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
    Posts
    875
    Rep Power
    29336

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    I picked up a gas blow back KJW sig 226. I carry a glock 26, but trigger time is trigger time. I had to get a new holster for it but so far I love it. Very accurate and fun to shoot. I need to get a propane adapter for it though. Green gas is expensive. An indoor CQB arena recently opened near where i live and its a blast. It has changed my mind a lot about personal and home defense. IDPA is one thing but tip toeing through the dark trying to find someone with an airsoft gun gets your heart pumping a whole different way.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,106
    Rep Power
    21474860

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    I'm no tactical expert (I've never even worked as a professional Mall Ninja), but it seems to me that you have a 50/50 chance of either bringing your airsoft handling skills up to the level of live fire, or bringing your live weapon handling skills down to the level of toy guns.

    I treat everything that looks like a gun the same as I would treat a gun. I don't sweep others with an airsoft, or even a cap gun. It makes them nervous, it would be a bad habit for me to pick up. I don't put a toy gun to my head and pull the trigger. I don't point a toy gun at another person or the dog and pull the trigger. I don't dry fire at the TV, even when Keith Olbermann is on. And I don't practice house-clearing and pulling the trigger inside my home. These are bad habits to acquire with a toy gun if you ever plan on handling a real gun. Probably OK for the Japanese or Brits, not so good for a gun owner.

    I have mixed feelings about paintball games. On the one hand, it desensitizes the players to pulling the trigger on a human target. On the other, I'd bet on a veteran paintball team against your average SWAT team, going head to head with comparable weapons. Enthusiasm added to training beats vocational training.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    PGH, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    7,483
    Rep Power
    253711

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    GL, me and you will just have to disagree about this.

    I have taken training courses that utilized airsoft for FOF, and ones which used simulated guns that shoot paint markers (real guns, real recoil, real everything, but shoot paint markers).
    As a matter of fact a lot of .mil and LE use simulated guns for training.

    Im not really sure how else you are to do any realistic training when it comes to people interacting with one another and having to utilize a firearm. You certainly wouldnt use real guns.

    And I can attest that practiceing the skills with airsoft properly does translate directly to handleing of real guns.

    How and why exactly would using something that functions exactly like your carry gun, in you carry holster, the way you carry it to practice presenation not translate ?

    And except for shooting real bullets with real recoil and report using those same tools to practice within ones own home is great for learning your house and developing appropriate tactics.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Age
    44
    Posts
    2,140
    Rep Power
    3345

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    FoF with Airsoft is an incredibly valuable training tool, IMO.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
    Posts
    354
    Rep Power
    285

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    Shawn.L I feel the same way however i am a little bias as own and operate a Airsoft CQB/CQC arena. We use FOF and Draw from cover as well and it is a Amazing Training tool. Military and LE have used AirSoft for years now and it is A growing Training tool as well as a hobby for many. I have played Airsoft for many years and trained with Real Fire Arms as well for Almost as long, Airsoft is cheaper than real steel DEF. First thing i teach to my Customers is SAFETY and Safe Weapons handling. Then i will go over the Advantages of FOF and AIR SIM games and Scenarios. I have had Many LE and CO's here and they Really like the idea of training using a Realistic Weapon for FOF and the use of a Facility on there Personal time to just have fun.
    We do Drills on Transitions with Fire and without we Drill moving shooting and off shooting positions. Draw from cover and fire drills, Advancement drills as well as retreat drills. One thing i can say from playing Airsoft for so long is i Don't EVER want to be in a Fire Fight
    GL.
    I can see what you are saying it is not good practice to Point any weapon at any one, But there is a very REAL Training Aspect to this Sport and Correct Use of the Weapon Systems.
    i do understand your point GL.
    Does this look like my Care Face.....

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nazareth, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Posts
    599
    Rep Power
    396

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    Airsoft is a valuable raining tool, but it does have some disadvantages too.

    Pros:
    You can get a duplicate copy of most guns that functions almost identically.
    Carrying, draw, aim, and the four rules apply identically.
    A gas blow back gun comes close to mimicking recoil.
    You can buy a quality rifle, quality handgun, and accessories - including 10,000 bb's for less than the cost of most real handguns
    Getting shot by a .20, .25 gr bb traveling at 300+ fps hurts & can make you bleed / bruise - but a whole lot less than a real bullet. FOF air soft training teaches you how not to get shot :-)
    An airsoft gun is GREAT for teaching people who have never handled a gun before and for teaching the four rules to kids.
    When run right - it's a lot of fun!

    Cons:
    Magazine capacity is usually unrealistic - my airsoft G17 holds 25 rounds in the mag. This is controllable by only loading 17. An M4 mid-cap mag holds between 120 and 140 rounds. Magpul does offer 30 round airsoft mags though.
    Cyclic rate on full auto is unrealistic. It doesn't apply to most of us, but some of the AEG M4s are getting 25+ rounds per second.
    In airsoft, a sheet rock wall is cover. In real life, a sheet rock wall is concealment.

    For folks in the area, or up for a drive, check out 556airsoft.com. It's the arena Reiche was referring to.

    The Pros outweigh the Cons considerably.
    Complete equality isn't compatible with democracy, but it is agreeable to totalitarianism. After all the only way to ensure the equality of the slothful, the inept and the immoral is to suppress everyone else. - Iain Benson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
    Posts
    875
    Rep Power
    29336

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Pvandunk View Post
    One thing i can say from playing Airsoft for so long is i Don't EVER want to be in a Fire Fight
    +1 to that

    Airsoft opened my eyes and awful lot with that

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Easton, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Age
    54
    Posts
    1,161
    Rep Power
    4147

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Skullz View Post
    Airsoft is a valuable raining tool, but it does have some disadvantages too.

    Pros:
    You can get a duplicate copy of most guns that functions almost identically.
    Carrying, draw, aim, and the four rules apply identically.
    A gas blow back gun comes close to mimicking recoil.
    You can buy a quality rifle, quality handgun, and accessories - including 10,000 bb's for less than the cost of most real handguns
    Getting shot by a .20, .25 gr bb traveling at 300+ fps hurts & can make you bleed / bruise - but a whole lot less than a real bullet. FOF air soft training teaches you how not to get shot :-)
    An airsoft gun is GREAT for teaching people who have never handled a gun before and for teaching the four rules to kids.
    When run right - it's a lot of fun!

    Cons:
    Magazine capacity is usually unrealistic - my airsoft G17 holds 25 rounds in the mag. This is controllable by only loading 17. An M4 mid-cap mag holds between 120 and 140 rounds. Magpul does offer 30 round airsoft mags though.
    Cyclic rate on full auto is unrealistic. It doesn't apply to most of us, but some of the AEG M4s are getting 25+ rounds per second.
    In airsoft, a sheet rock wall is cover. In real life, a sheet rock wall is concealment.

    For folks in the area, or up for a drive, check out 556airsoft.com. It's the arena Reiche was referring to.

    The Pros outweigh the Cons considerably.
    What he said .

    It is also just flat out fun and a good time for all. It can't hurt you to try. Or you can sit home. I do not take advice from those that have never had or tried.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Somewhere else, Pennsylvania
    (Cambria County)
    Posts
    2,650
    Rep Power
    21474850

    Default Re: Airsoft as a training aid

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I'm no tactical expert (I've never even worked as a professional Mall Ninja), but it seems to me that you have a 50/50 chance of either bringing your airsoft handling skills up to the level of live fire, or bringing your live weapon handling skills down to the level of toy guns.
    Take this for what it's worth, but do I have at least a little bit more expertise than the ubiquitous Mall Ninja. I don't think it is an either/or thing. It has been my experience that airsoft training improves both my live and 'toy' weapon handling skills.

    I treat everything that looks like a gun the same as I would treat a gun. I don't sweep others with an airsoft, or even a cap gun. It makes them nervous, it would be a bad habit for me to pick up. I don't put a toy gun to my head and pull the trigger. I don't point a toy gun at another person or the dog and pull the trigger. I don't dry fire at the TV, even when Keith Olbermann is on. And I don't practice house-clearing and pulling the trigger inside my home. These are bad habits to acquire with a toy gun if you ever plan on handling a real gun. Probably OK for the Japanese or Brits, not so good for a gun owner.
    I'll first say that using 'airsoft' and 'toy gun' interchangeably is misleading. An airsoft gun is a pretty sophisticated non-lethal/low-cost replica of a firearm. Calling an airsoft gun that is being used in serious training a toy would be like calling a hydraulic enhanced flight simulator a toy. Sure, some airsoft guns are used as toys, and so are some flight simulators, but an airsoft gun is a far cry from something made by Playmobile.

    As far as weapon orientation, muzzle discipline and other such weapon handling concerns that you mention... It's just not that cut and dry. Nearly every soldier at some time or another will put a blank-firing-adapter on their weapon and and train FoF. The more elite the unit gets, the more the rules are adapted to provide the next level of training. For example, SOFD-D qualification course has (had?) a culminating exercise involving a live-fire shoot house using other team members as the 'no-shoot' targets mixed in the engagement zones. (Imagine having living humans as the no-shoot targets for the next IDPA match! )

    When I was trying to think of a response for you, I was reminded of one time when you explained about how the laws limit activities broadly then make specific exceptions. That concept might apply here. I see the four rules as the broad, general regulation, and there are specific justifications for breaking any of the rules. Much like it is illegal to kill a person unless you meet the requirements for justification (ie self-defense), I would never point a weapon at something I was not prepared to destroy unless I met the 'justification' of going through specific procedures for engaging in some specific kind of training.

    The thing is, if a person were to strictly adhere to the four rules when handling any firearm, or anything even similar to a firearm, they would seriously retard their training options... Really, if a person were to be very strict, it would make life with a firearm very difficult to manage... There's really not a single thing in my house that I am prepared to destroy, so in the strictest sense, I couldn't even have a gun in my house.

    Where you draw the line is an individual thing, so if you don't want to dry fire at your TV, that is fine with me. For what it's worth, when I conduct airsoft training the rules of firearms safety are strictly observed. There are specific exceptions for people actively engaged in an exercise because that is the nature of FoF, but otherwise the training runs very similar to a hot range. If someone were to 'goof-off' with an airsoft gun they would not be invited to participate in training again.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Airsoft for FoF training questions
    By LittleRedToyota in forum Training, Tactics & Competition
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: January 5th, 2010, 07:46 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: December 24th, 2009, 12:21 PM
  3. 556 Airsoft
    By Strapped in forum General
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: November 25th, 2009, 10:49 PM
  4. Airsoft
    By Fizzle1985 in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: August 17th, 2009, 08:34 PM
  5. Questions on protection for Airsoft, FoF training.
    By djturnz in forum Training, Tactics & Competition
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: June 16th, 2009, 02:31 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops