Carbine vs Pistol training

[mercop]

Not sure how this thread has spiraled so far out of control form my original post.

Synergy, I was not being smart when I said you had a Master. If you only study under one person I would consider him your Master. I have a Master in Ju Jitsu. It is my core MA and everything else I learn is used along with it.

The bring a friend comment was to let you know that you could bring a buddy if you wanted. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable coming to our very open minded and eclectic group so why not bring a buddy.

You are correct, I have a lot of confidence in what I do. That comes from working hard, doing research, coming up with theories, and seeing them proven time and time again in the training environment and the street. This includes my edged weapon stuff and officer survival, which for the most part is not the focus in these forums. The first thing we study is anatomy, both ours and our attackers and how to find continuity between our natural response and needing to use our tools.

I will agree that Unloved is passionate about MCS. He should be, prior to training with me he had no previous formal training. I would estimate he now has 40-50 hrs of training in open hand combatives, impact weapons, edged weapons, and pistol. All of our courses use force on force and during drills we ask the student how high they want the intensity from 1-10. Before long unloved was doing everything at a 10 and has the bumps and bruises to prove it. He has used some of the principles on the street. In many instances he would be better suited to explain what they do than I would because of his perception.

In the future we may offer a carbine course, after we do the shotgun one that everybody has been bugging me for. Both of them will be based on managing threats that based on my training, research, and expertise I can see people needing to deal with. It would lack "flair" but for most people a realistic long gun course would not have a lot of shooting but rather learning to navigate hallways and stairwells without leading with your barrel or banging against the walls instead of firing 1000 rounds. Just don't think that would sell to many people...including me.

Guns4fun, truth be told I am not offended by the retard comment, even though my daughter is. I am interested to learn that there are so many retards in the AR community that the word is so common. I guess in the AK community they say it in Russian. You handled my sensitivity well. Those of you who know me personally know that I am easy going person but live to break balls.

At the end of the day we all know what we know, those who know, know. Always figured with few exceptions everyone I have ever met in the "internet octagon" known as forums, would be easier to deal with over a beer preferably Guinness.

You will have to excuse me sometimes if I do get all ancy in my pancy with this training stuff. It really is not a hobby to me, I would rather train/teach than breath. I am sure those who have attended an MCS class will tell you that it is more of a training group than a class. Without those that turn up the class would not be possible. It is a time to see what works and does not work. All I ask is if you don't have a specific way for dealing with something try my way, if you have one and it is better I will use it and give you credit. My experience has humbled me. I will take all the luck I can get when it comes to surviving.

Synergy, I have little doubt that you could teach me to be faster on the gun. I learned my accuracy from Roy Bergman who is retired from Missouri State Police, he was the first national police champion in 1960. Just as I am sure you or any other gun carrier could benefit from some combatives.

As far as me misspelling some words, using the wrong words, or whatever...as I tell me wife, I write for content, who has time for punctuation. I jest, I jest. I should pay more attention. Just in a hurry to get thoughts out I guess.

I hope this post has reset the thermostat in here.- George

[unloved]

I haven't been dishonest, so you can draw your own conclusions about what I am, or am not.

When you read one of my statements, and then claim that I said something other than what I clearly said (which you've done over and over in this thread), that's called lying. Also known as dishonesty.

[d90king]

George thank you for taking the time to clear the air and sort out the things that were taken out of context on my part, and maybe by some others... I have no doubt that your intentions are good, but are sometimes taken out of your intended context.

I suck at writing, and I certainly understand the frustrations of being able to capture my thoughts through written words...

[synergy]

Synergy, I was not being smart when I said you had a Master. If you only study under one person I would consider him your Master. I have a Master in Ju Jitsu. It is my core MA and everything else I learn is used along with it.

The bring a friend comment was to let you know that you could bring a buddy if you wanted. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable coming to our very open minded and eclectic group so why not bring a buddy.

The context of your usage of the word master, though, doesn't fit. I specifically noted an additional 40hr block of pistol instruction I did with another outfit, and have trained 1 on 1 with instructors from CSAT, TriCon, the Air Marshals, and Insights. I wasn't putting money in their pocket, but I was still learning from them. You have chosen to ignore all of it though, and try to present me as much more 1 dimentional. Whatever, though. I don't feel a need to impress you, so you are welcome to think what you like.

I didn't understand the +1 invite, now I do. Again, thanks for the offer.

As for resetting thermostats... I'll admit that I'm highly critical of potential products. Be it new gear I buy, or training I choose to invest in. When I see gaps in something, I'll dive head first into analyzing why that gap exists, and what it signifies. As a result, I no doubt get carried away once in a while.

The stars have alligned on this Hackathorn class for me, I'm starting to catch up on my bills, and with enough bagged lunches, I'll be able to make it happen. I wish I had more loot to train more often, I just don't.

I'm extreemly analytical, and reverse ADD about things that interest me. So odds are, I've done a lot of thinking through what I do, and what I believe. When questioned, I may seem defensive, because I've thought through those same arguements already.

I don't appreciate the "you can't teach" insult. I was teaching students how to build climbing anchors that they would be trusting their lives to every time the touched the rock/ ice. Their life literally was dependant on how well they mastered the ability to pick the right line to paddle through a stretch of rapids, or their ability to assess the integrity of rock they were anchoring into with gear. The burdon of responsibility that followed that is just as great as teaching people how to handle themselves in potential use of force encounters they may or may not ever have down the road. My students lives would be in my hands, whenever they climbed on my anchors, or if I taught them how to build their own. If you want to suggest that my course material wasn't as serious as what you do.... I'd beg to differ.

If the argument then becomes I don't know how to shoot... then once you proove that you can shoot better, I'll shut up. I see that's not the argument though, now.

I know my combatives are weak. It's probably because I don't have the mass to muscle through techniques, and haven't spent enough time mastering technique. This is something I've wanted to address, but with my work schedule never being consistent, paying for class every week (which I could only probably make 50% of) doesn't make sence for me, now.



As you said, over a beer, we'd all likely be nodding along with each other and planning the next get together to meet up and cross train.

[PeteG]

Actually, there's a perfect way for one of us to be convinced. Take the free course George has offered. Put up or shut up. I'm finished arguing with you. Either your reading comprehension skills are sadly substandard, or you're just utterly dishonest.

Actually, I wish you would both give it a rest. Your argument has not added anythng of substance to this thread. It's personal, and its unseemly.

[PeteG]

But then again, maybe i completely miss read everything.

No everything, but some things for sure.

The thread is too long, and what individuals are posting is being generalized to everyone ... which is what happens when threads get too long and too many topics are involved. Anyone who wanted to pick this up from the beginning would have to spend four hours reading threads ... which is too long.

On the positive side, I find the level of interest in this thread encouraging. I also note the amount of personal stuff has been relatively limited ... relative, I mean, to the scope of the thread and as compared to a lot of similar discussions I have seen.

[PeteG]

Most graduate work is self study........you research the information yourself and you apply once you have your degree. Once you have the degree you are deemed fit to practice. Sometimes you have people train you inside an internship. Once you leave that internship you can practice how you see fit.

This is another GREAT topic. But for another thread.

One of the interesting things about learning skills needed to protect oneself from personal attacks is that they cannot be learned alone.

This concept is illustrated by the informal rule observed by judoka: "Don't break uki." (Uki is the guy who takes the fall or is thrown.) Expressed formally it is an unpronounceable Japanese phrase ... but it essentially addresses the fact that without training partners there is no training.

Training directed toward using a firearms in a fight is no different. The things we can practice on our own regarding firearms are not of great consequence in pesonal combat situations. They are relevant, and they matter; they just are not usually outcome determinative.

Consider the fact that those of us who train with firearms NEED each other.

[unloved]

Actually, I wish you would both give it a rest. Your argument has not added anythng of substance to this thread. It's personal, and its unseemly.

You're right, it is unseemly. I take it personally when an individual continually misrepresents my statements, and deliberately takes my comments out of context. I find it especially distasteful when someone puts words I have not used in quotes and attributes them to me. That's not acceptable in polite conversation.




Overall, point taken. Giving it a rest.

[PeteG]

As for "putting up or shutting up", we're still waiting for the list of "GI Joe" carbine classes... -

Apropos of my last two posts, if I were to list four or five carbine courses (or thier instructors) who I thought recruited students by pushing fantasy buttons and emphasizing kit, I would just touch off another flame war. Someone who took one of the courses I regard as fantasy land would be outraged that I had the temerity to insult thier guru; then the owner would be here calling me out - and challenging my credentials to challenge his credentials. Then one or more of these guys would find something in my personal life over which to make an issue ....

And where would that get me? Where would it get any of us?

I'm just as prone to get angry if subjected to a personal attack as the next guy, and I don't need the aggravation.

You won't get any such list from me, because it's not important and it creates more smoke, confusion and distraction than clarity or useful information.

So why do you keep calling for this kind of trouble? To vindicate yourself as an authority? To prove someone 18 posts ago was wrong and you were right? I am confident that almost nobody who reads this thread will care at all about either. (People don't even use thier real names on these lists!)

Think about it.

[PeteG]

You're right, it is unseemly. I take it personally when an individual continually misrepresents my statements, and deliberately takes my comments out of context. I find it especially distasteful when someone puts words I have not used in quotes and attributes them to me. That's not acceptable in polite conversation.
.

We all get aggravated in those circumstances. I have found it is best to try not to get sucked up an all that.